Posie putting her money where her mouth is. Lets do this.

[Fallingirl]

Posie is planning to re-build the women’s sector, starting with crowd funding for a women-only refuge.

I'm sorry to say it comes over as very personal, mirroring the Stonewall approach of attacking another woman rather than addressing the real issues.

I agree. It's appalling.

Datun I can well imagine it.

It’s clear that Posie has some great qualities. She speaks plainly and clearly. She is accessible to women who don’t listen to Radio 4 or engage with feminism.

But she’s renowned for making huge errors of judgement.

The attached example of her victim blaming women who have been abused is worth sharing again. Is this really the best candidate to set up a women's refuge?

She’s Tweeted that women who think they are men should be sterilised. She continues to casually misrepresent and generalise the struggles of Muslim women.

Surely the fact that she’s been banned from speaking at WPUK meetings tells us something? That she’s been banned from here? That Kathleen Stock and Julie Bindel refer to her as a ‘liability’. That Jean Hatchet is calling her project an ‘atrocious self-promoting act’ on this very thread?

How much more are women expected to forgive of her before parting with their cash for her project? Seriously?

But my point is, if women get the false impression that all refuges have men in them from this campaign and that puts them off getting help, that's not a good thing, is it?

And there's the rub. Because of current statutory funding requirements there are no guarantees that women won't encounter a man in refuge - either as a resident or a worker. Even if there are no men in the staff group or in residence when a woman first arrives that situation could change at any time during her stay even in spite of a refuge's best efforts to prevent it.

Posie is not being alarmist or creating a false impression here - she's being realistic.

It's interesting how those who are against Posie constantly refer to the targeting of the refuges and the people who run them, we've had one poster saying Posie should immediately tell the world who will be running the proposed shelter so they can be targeted and bullied now:

Yes, she really needs to say who will be running it. After all whoever runs it will be targetted anyway, so there is nothing to be gained by not saying at the moment.

We have another poster admitting that refuges and the people who run them are too scared to admit they are single sex as they will be targeted:

I get your point. It looks like we need a more public way to donate to those services that are working for women, without putting them at risk of being targeted. (A sorry state of affairs!)

It is indeed a sorry state of affairs and yet you attack and dismiss the person bringing the fact that women only shelters are disappearing who is responsible for this and why they are doing it to wider public attention, something the current providers are, apparently, too afraid or too cowed to do.

One person is prepared to stick their head above the parapet and take the incoming fire by publicising the hideous state of affairs that this sector is in and you want her to go away, shut up, leave it to the experts who are too afraid to confront this head on and have allowed by their reluctance and timidity to stand up and be counted the current state we are in to take root.

I know who my money's on for helping women who need specialist support.

I know who my money is on for a women only shelter and service to be exactly that.

But my point is, if women get the false impression that all refuges have men in them from this campaign and that puts them off getting help, that's not a good thing, is it?

I can only speak for me, but it was people already working in or close to the sector that led me to believe many DV shelters are now essentially mixed sex, not Posie.

People have been talking about this for a few years, so its unfair to blame posie if people believe refugees may have men in them.

That's why women in the sector have been working to try to get others to speak up

As for this, they only want the right person to speak up, anyone who isn't politically pure gets ripped to shreds.

SapphosRock
Two out of the three women that you quote as criticising Posie also have had some criticism of their tweets / opinions on occasions. Does that therefore cancel out their views on Posie? Of course it doesn't.

It's wearying this insistence that only certain women are allowed to speak out, fund raise, be appreciated, listened to ..... This issue is a life changing situation for women and I'm just grateful for everyone who raises their head above the parapet. I just wish those women congregating on here to lecture us all about the dangers of Posie would redirect their attention to the real thereat to women - and that isn't Posie.

SapphosRock this is beginning to sound simply 'fan-girling' (as someone ascribed to people supporting Posie earlier in the thread) but the other way.

I personally don't hold WP in terribly high regard on all things. I don't particularly agree with lots that Kathleen Stock or Julie Bindal say.

Fir the hundredth time, Posie has says she's not personally running a refuge herself. But yes, I find Posies bravery and sheer tenacity quite inspiring.

Isn't it good we can all like different people and have different views?

Not sure where else this thread can go honestly.

Rise is in Brighton and has pioneered LGBT services there. There are a lot of LGB and T people in Brighton, it's appropriate for the local DV services to cater to the local population.

However their website states they provide specialist services for mothers and children. It is possible to provide both.

And if you're a woman without children, what do you do? That's without going into the definitions of 'woman' and 'mother'.

Surely the fact that she’s been banned from speaking at WPUK meetings tells us something? That she’s been banned from here? That Kathleen Stock and Julie Bindel refer to her as a ‘liability’. That Jean Hatchet is calling her project an ‘atrocious self-promoting act’ on this very thread?

I think WPUK probably wouldn't let me speak at their meetings either but I don't see them as the arbiter of all that is good and moral about feminism so that's fine.

I think one of the main things that bothers all of the women that you mention is other women taking "uncoordinated" action. They think that they as our self appointed leaders are in charge of strategy and they cooperate with each other in order to contribute to their goal of making GC beliefs accepted as moderate and mainstream.

Action from women that is not part of this strategy of moderate cooperation is condemned- we saw this when so many women lost their shit over the launch of the Repeal the GRA website. The supporters of the accepted powers in this movement were shouting "Who are these women? Why haven't they consulted us about strategy?" Etc etc.

It's very elitist. Particularly if like Posie, you've been frozen out by our "leaders" so you are unable to cooperate with them even if you wanted to.

Coordination and strategising inevitable includes compromise, and often compromising the very interests of the group that you are aiming to represent- eg platforming transexuals excludes trans widows but that is seen as a necessary compromise to coordinate with the aims of our trans "allies".

Posie is not prepared to sacrifice the interests of any women or girls in order to compromise and strategise- I am not prepared to sacrifice the interests of any trans widow in order to cooperate with other groups. I admire Posie for that.

That she is not trying to make a living as a professional feminist of course, assists her in this.

It really is about elitism more than anything.

I also think that for those that are new to the debate and who came over from the "other side", her directness is intimidating. It feels safer to continue to fudge some issues as it makes you feel less exposed.

So you think it's better to keep it quiet so women aren't aware that men might be in those spaces, rather than set up a campaign to make a difference?

Absolutely not! I think what we need is the truth, not any version of it that's simplified to follow a false narrative, whether that narrative is that many refuges are "women only" when in fact they let transwomen in, or that the entire sector doesn't know what a woman is and that there are only 2 refuges left run by women for women.

@SapphosRock

Datun I can well imagine it.

It’s clear that Posie has some great qualities. She speaks plainly and clearly. She is accessible to women who don’t listen to Radio 4 or engage with feminism.

But she’s renowned for making huge errors of judgement.

The attached example of her victim blaming women who have been abused is worth sharing again. Is this really the best candidate to set up a women's refuge?

She’s Tweeted that women who think they are men should be sterilised. She continues to casually misrepresent and generalise the struggles of Muslim women.

Surely the fact that she’s been banned from speaking at WPUK meetings tells us something? That she’s been banned from here? That Kathleen Stock and Julie Bindel refer to her as a ‘liability’. That Jean Hatchet is calling her project an ‘atrocious self-promoting act’ on this very thread?

How much more are women expected to forgive of her before parting with their cash for her project? Seriously?

Yes, I wonder if she's changed her view on this, and if it would even matter to those who are convinced that anyone criticizing her must have an axe to grind?

@TinselAngel

Surely the fact that she’s been banned from speaking at WPUK meetings tells us something? That she’s been banned from here? That Kathleen Stock and Julie Bindel refer to her as a ‘liability’. That Jean Hatchet is calling her project an ‘atrocious self-promoting act’ on this very thread?

I think WPUK probably wouldn't let me speak at their meetings either but I don't see them as the arbiter of all that is good and moral about feminism so that's fine.

I think one of the main things that bothers all of the women that you mention is other women taking "uncoordinated" action. They think that they as our self appointed leaders are in charge of strategy and they cooperate with each other in order to contribute to their goal of making GC beliefs accepted as moderate and mainstream.

Action from women that is not part of this strategy of moderate cooperation is condemned- we saw this when so many women lost their shit over the launch of the Repeal the GRA website. The supporters of the accepted powers in this movement were shouting "Who are these women? Why haven't they consulted us about strategy?" Etc etc.

It's very elitist. Particularly if like Posie, you've been frozen out by our "leaders" so you are unable to cooperate with them even if you wanted to.

Coordination and strategising inevitable includes compromise, and often compromising the very interests of the group that you are aiming to represent- eg platforming transexuals excludes trans widows but that is seen as a necessary compromise to coordinate with the aims of our trans "allies".

Posie is not prepared to sacrifice the interests of any women or girls in order to compromise and strategise- I am not prepared to sacrifice the interests of any trans widow in order to cooperate with other groups. I admire Posie for that.

That she is not trying to make a living as a professional feminist of course, assists her in this.

It really is about elitism more than anything.

I also think that for those that are new to the debate and who came over from the "other side", her directness is intimidating. It feels safer to continue to fudge some issues as it makes you feel less exposed.

This ^

And all the ad hominem attacks don't work.

They're too scattergun to look in the slightest bit credible. It's vanity, it's a stunt, she's an Islamophobe, she's right wing, she advocates for sterilisation, she's deliberately undermining women.

We've also had that she is a Stepford wife, she's subservient, she's a 1950s housewife, she's a stay at home mum. At the same time that she is scary, intimidating and aggressive.

It's all over the top, personal attacks.

The woman is raising money to set up a woman's refuge, for goodness sake.

Get a grip.

How much more are women expected to forgive of her before parting with their cash for her project? Seriously?

Eh? You don't have to forgive anyone, or part with anything.

Personally, I'm 100% confident that Rise are much better placed to help women that Posie - she doesn't know anything about providing services for women who've suffered abuse and trauma. Rise have 26 years experience in the field

Again posie wont be manning any shelter she sets up by herself, everyone knows she doesn't have the skill set, I dont have the bloody skillset either so I don't work in such a place.

You hire in the people who do know, those who've been too scared (ffs sake ) to state they want to run a single sex place only. Because they know full well that allowing men in means in the most obvious cases that the male abuser of any woman that uses the space can say the magic words and he too has to be allowed in. If you think that cant or wont happen you are deluded.

It really is about elitism more than anything.

It really isn't. You're making huge assumptions here.

I started from a position of being an enthusiastic supporter of Posie. I loved her direct approach, fearlessness and genius PR. There are a few feminists even now who won't talk to me as they think I'm a Posie supporter!

I remember I even took one of the academic feminists to talk for being mean to her, when I met her at a feminist event some years ago. I cringe to think of it now! She explained her position, patiently to me, and that was the beginning of me understanding there are some serious concerns with Posie's approach, it's not just about personalities.

Over the years, I have observed Posie making some huge errors of judgement (as said above).

I'm not going to go into what they are, as actually, I'm not here to bash Posie (honest!) but these observations have led me to be wary of her actions and approach.

I'm not an academic feminist or part of any elite. I'm a mother on a low wage who's been on Mumsnet for well over a decade and involved in grass roots feminist activism for some years.

I'm someone who believes in fairness and honesty, and I'm sharing my concerns as I see them.

I don't mind if you disagree with me, (I think debate is healthy) and I couldn't care less what you spend your money on. But it does annoy me to be accused of personality politics or elitism or whatever when I feel I have genuine concerns.

The thing is, Posie is a stirrer. And it works for her. It's like, you know when you know someone who knows how to push your buttons? A sibling or partner maybe? And they may say something to you that's highly offensive or deeply annoying, and you react, but the rest of the world is left thinking WTF was that about as they have no idea of the context?

It's a bit like that, I think. Posie has gone on the attack, on the basis of untruths directed at the entire women's sector, which is unfair on those doing good work and quite possibly counter productive. It's plainly obvious to those its aimed at, but apparently invisible to others. So, I can understand that people are like WTF is their problem?!

Which is a shame as it gets in the way of us having a constructive conversation about legit concerns.

I'm going to bow out now, for a while at least, because it doesn't feel very constructive at the moment.

As I said at the top, I hope I'm wrong. We all want to support women in need of women's services and if this does help them and my concerns are unfounded, I'd be delighted.

They think that they as our self appointed leaders are in charge of strategy and they cooperate with each other in order to contribute to their goal of making GC beliefs accepted as moderate and mainstream.

I think these two approaches can work in tandem. She shifts the window, they appear moderate and distance themselves from her excesses. It means she's taking one for the team reputationally though so I don't understand why the need to pile on? I think radical action backed up by pragmatism is the way to get things done.

@howtocomplain

It really is about elitism more than anything.

It really isn't. You're making huge assumptions here.

I started from a position of being an enthusiastic supporter of Posie. I loved her direct approach, fearlessness and genius PR. There are a few feminists even now who won't talk to me as they think I'm a Posie supporter!

I remember I even took one of the academic feminists to talk for being mean to her, when I met her at a feminist event some years ago. I cringe to think of it now! She explained her position, patiently to me, and that was the beginning of me understanding there are some serious concerns with Posie's approach, it's not just about personalities.

Over the years, I have observed Posie making some huge errors of judgement (as said above).

I'm not going to go into what they are, as actually, I'm not here to bash Posie (honest!) but these observations have led me to be wary of her actions and approach.

I'm not an academic feminist or part of any elite. I'm a mother on a low wage who's been on Mumsnet for well over a decade and involved in grass roots feminist activism for some years.

I'm someone who believes in fairness and honesty, and I'm sharing my concerns as I see them.

I don't mind if you disagree with me, (I think debate is healthy) and I couldn't care less what you spend your money on. But it does annoy me to be accused of personality politics or elitism or whatever when I feel I have genuine concerns.

The thing is, Posie is a stirrer. And it works for her. It's like, you know when you know someone who knows how to push your buttons? A sibling or partner maybe? And they may say something to you that's highly offensive or deeply annoying, and you react, but the rest of the world is left thinking WTF was that about as they have no idea of the context?

It's a bit like that, I think. Posie has gone on the attack, on the basis of untruths directed at the entire women's sector, which is unfair on those doing good work and quite possibly counter productive. It's plainly obvious to those its aimed at, but apparently invisible to others. So, I can understand that people are like WTF is their problem?!

Which is a shame as it gets in the way of us having a constructive conversation about legit concerns.

I'm going to bow out now, for a while at least, because it doesn't feel very constructive at the moment.

As I said at the top, I hope I'm wrong. We all want to support women in need of women's services and if this does help them and my concerns are unfounded, I'd be delighted.

I wasn't accusing you of anything I was talking about the women mentioned by Sapphos.

It's a bit like that, I think. Posie has gone on the attack, on the basis of untruths directed at the entire women's sector, which is unfair on those doing good work and quite possibly counter productive. It's plainly obvious to those its aimed at, but apparently invisible to others. So, I can understand that people are like WTF is their problem?!

'Do you think if Posie had said look I know it's really hard for the women in the sector, they're scared, they are doing a fantastic job, but this is what I think I'm going to do now, because I can', that you would feel differently?

The thing is, Posie is a stirrer.
I agree. And if it's correct that women-only services have been reduced to communicating through whispers and secret handshakes then I'm sorry but, from where I'm sitting, then stirring is what is needed.

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

They think that they as our self appointed leaders are in charge of strategy and they cooperate with each other in order to contribute to their goal of making GC beliefs accepted as moderate and mainstream.

I think these two approaches can work in tandem. She shifts the window, they appear moderate and distance themselves from her excesses. It means she's taking one for the team reputationally though so I don't understand why the need to pile on? I think radical action backed up by pragmatism is the way to get things done.

Yes, I agree.

I see all the roads leading to the same destination. And people getting along them in a very different way from one another.

I fail to see how the different methods undermine each other. It's the criticism of each other that does the undermining.

I fail to see how the different methods undermine each other. It's the criticism of each other that does the undermining.

Exactly!

Personally, I'm 100% confident that Rise are much better placed to help women that Posie - she doesn't know anything about providing services for women who've suffered abuse and trauma. Rise have 26 years experience in the field

In which case you do a fundraiser / donate and campaign for them if that's your preference. Rather than riding on the back of Posies campaign to try and direct people donations away from it. There's room for all of them.

There really is something pretty stinky about trying to bring down another woman's campaign to create safe sex segregated spaces tbh.

Over the years, I have observed Posie making some huge errors of judgement (as said above).

There have been huge errors of judgement in the Refuge sector made by the experts and yet we are being told we must trust them, they know what they are doing, they are sorting it out quietly behind the scenes, don't bring attention to it.

That approach is clearly not working and has led us to where we are now, as Floisme said it is time for some stirring, get attention focused on this and force people to explain why women only services are targeted, by whom they are targeted, get those who are decimating the sector to justify what they are doing and why they are doing it, get it out there in the open in front of the public.

"The moment we begin to fear the opinions of others and hesitate to tell the truth that is in us, and from motives of policy are silent when we should speak, the divine floods of light and life no longer flow into our souls. Every truth we see is ours to give the world, not to keep for ourselves alone, for in so doing we cheat humanity out of their rights and check our own development." - Elizabeth Cady Stanton

I was just reminded of this on another thread. Seems apposite.

We all make errors but only Posie's seem to be endlessly picked over.