Should Muslim women be forced to give beauty treatments to males?

[HecatesCatsInFancyHats]

"Unisex salon stand by their decision to REJECT a gender-fluid singer from a nail appointment - because they thought they were 'a man' so Muslim beautician objected"

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9601197/Nail-salon-refuse-manicure-gender-fluid-singer-beautician-Muslim.html

But of course, neither would I wish any woman to be forced to work in a job that forced her to touch men, if she didn't want to touch men, for any reason.

@Zinco I’ve reported your comment.

I don’t think it’s unprofessional. In fact I trained at college years ago and we had a man doing inappropriate things... our tutor banned him from coming back again.

Also a lot of salons won’t just accept a male unless it’s for a referral by the wife of something tbh I wouldn’t feel comfortable personally.

@AlfonsoTheTerrible

That is so odd - when I look at the web site I see only a list of waxing services but nothing that relates to men. I can't find anything that relates to massages for men, either. Under "gents" I see only haircuts.

Are you clicking on the photos? I couldn’t find it under “waxing” nor the “gents” photos but if you click via the menu, you do get “men’s waxing” in the dropdown list

Thanks, @EyesOpening. I'll try that! It's a poorly designed web site.

Ah. Thanks. That worked!

Information about Andrea
"The person who is trying to get a salon delisted because a female Muslim worker refuses to touch men last year called JK Rowling an 'evil witch' and replied 'same sis' when someone else called for Rowling to be killed"

t.co/niCOodPVgO
twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1396110943143276544?s=19

Original discussion from.June 2020

Andrea Di Giovanni who signed, believes that JKR is an “evil witch”, an attention seeking “transphobe” and agrees that people should tell her to die. Hates DV and “gendered violence” though, so that’s ok.

Oh, and also staunch ally #AskDanielRadiffe didn’t do enough 🤷‍♀️ t.co/UBaZ5nnWT5

twitter.com/JammersMinde/status/1272866412743266305?s=19

Screenshots through link

"also considering their social media profile and how important their appearance to them, am surprised he/she/they were booking to get their nails done in a salon they didn't know about, had been to before and tbh looks a bit grubby from the pics. Again makes me wonder if this was done on purpose..."
I agree.

Now that someone's explained about booking online and the salon phoning up at some point afterwards, it makes more sense, I couldn't figure out why they would be phoning or how they would know, unless someone had left a note to say that a male sounding voice had originally phoned to book.

Has the salon's version of this phone call been posted anywhere though?

That is dismaying. Mr Di Giovanni sounds like a very unpleasant individual.

According to twitter.com/JammersMinde/status/1272866412743266305?s=19 Mr Di Giovanni states "[J K Rowling's] been at it for a while with the support of the UK media which is as transphobic as fuck".

Interesting.

[quote AlfonsoTheTerrible]@InTheHeatOfTheSun - your comment intrigued me so I looked up Di Giovanni's web site - andreadigiovanni.it/about/.

Di Giovanni refers to himself as "him", "his" and "he".[/quote]
So the idea of being gender fluid is that some days Andrea decides to be “he” or a “she”?

I’m curious what they think of tomboys. Or those who prefer to dress androgynously?

@ArabellaScott

What about if a man held string views about women? Should he be able to refuse to serve them?

Sure, why not? I wouldn't insist on anyone having to touch someone unless it's in a necessary/unavoidable situation. Bodily autonomy is a pretty hard boundary for me.

But body autonomy can be exercised in one's choice of job, not simply by denying services. Surely?

Obviously society needs to ensure that people have opportunities even if they can't do some jobs... obviously there may be a reason to refuse to serve a particular man... obviously single-sexed personal services are a resonable thing to offer.

@Cailleachian

Why do people on Mumsnet continually try to insist that Muslim women must follow the most extreme patriarchal interpretations of Islam?

", she potentially puts herself in danger, as an adulterer in the eyes of an orthodox religion that often doesn't treat females who transgress strict sex segregation rules well."

Da fuck?! What a load of absolute nonsense.

Where do you stand on the veil?

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats What’s the veil got to do with the article?

Wearing or not wearing a veil is whatabouttery and not relevant to the issue at hand.

[quote DotCottan]@HecatesCatsInFancyHats What’s the veil got to do with the article?[/quote]
What's the veil got to do with the 21st century?

no one should be forced into doing beauty treatments they feel uncomfortable with

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Why do people on Mumsnet continually try to insist that Muslim women must follow the most extreme patriarchal interpretations of Islam? Except we don't!

We just accpet that some Muslim women do... and should be supported in that!

Such women should be supported as women - but surely not in following the most extreme patriarchal interpretations of a religion?

Would you also support women (whether Mormon fundamentalist or ultra-conservative Muslim) in adhering to the obligations of polygyny?

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats Does someone have to have the "correct" opinion on the "veil" before they answer?

What do you mean by the veil anyway? Hijab, niqab or what?

The beautician in question clearly does not wish to touch unrelated males. She has chosen to work in a profession which means she can work only with females.

I cannot see how this hinders anyone's rights/is enforcing sharia law or anything else.

A male is trying to publicly shame her for her choice of working practices. This is clearly wrong.

It's really not difficult.

@peadarm Such women should be supported as women - but surely not in following the most extreme patriarchal interpretations of a religion? By whose lights?

Basically I will support any woman to challenge any patriarchal oppression. But I won't tell any woman that what she believes is absolutely wrong. Islam is many and varied and can, and has, changed and adapted to modern living across the world. Many brave women across the world have and are stadning up and effecting change. I would support them, not imprint my own social mores upon them! The fundamentalists are not the norm here in the UK and, where they are, are being challenged daily. Helping those women who want to challenge it from within is something I would support. "Rescuing" them because their religion doesn't meet my approval is not!

Would you also support women (whether Mormon fundamentalist or ultra-conservative Muslim) in adhering to the obligations of polygyny? Yes, in exactly the same way as I described above!

@Cailleachian, I believe your remark was aimed at my post.

Nobody on mumsnet "insist(s) that Muslim women must follow the most extreme patriarchal interpretations of Islam." Unfortunately, many members of the families of Muslim women do.

According to the Halo Project :

Nationally there are approximately 12 -15 reported honour killings per year in the United Kingdom.

The statistics do not take into account the many people and school children who are taken abroad and do not return and their whereabouts are unknown. Neither do they reflect the nature of the abuse that can often be non-violent but nonetheless threatening and frightening to the point where you can’t make a single decision about your own life.

National statistics show that South Asian females under the age of 24 are 2 to 3 times more likely to commit suicide than their Caucasian counterparts.

In England there have been a number of female suicides normally by fire and also murders of South Asian women and children.

If you scroll down this BBC link, there are stories from all over the UK of muslim girls and women being punished for non adherence to strict codes of conduct/bringing dishonour:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c207p54m43qt/honour-killings

I'm of South Asian myself, and lived in 2 different Muslim communities for approx 10 years, one in the north, one in London. The abuse I received daily from Muslim men, for just walking down the street, being out with friends/partners, not being dressed "appropriately", living with white male housemates, and various other infractions, are too many to mention.

But look, if you have a different experience or insight, or think the organisations mentioned in the links above are wrong, why don't you post about it instead of just attacking other posters?

And, just for the record, I don't think any religion should dictate to a woman who she can or can't touch, mix with etc. I also think if a woman wants to follow the strict tenets of her religion, even if it is life limiting, it is up to her. The problem is, the line between the two, and the difference between free will and coercion, are often so blurred, it is difficult to tell which of either extreme is at play in any given situation.

However, no woman, whatever her creed, should be forced to touch any man is she does not want to.

[quote CuriousaboutSamphire]**@peadarm* Such women should be supported as women - but surely not in following the most extreme patriarchal interpretations of a religion?* By whose lights?

Basically I will support any woman to challenge any patriarchal oppression. But I won't tell any woman that what she believes is absolutely wrong. Islam is many and varied and can, and has, changed and adapted to modern living across the world. Many brave women across the world have and are stadning up and effecting change. I would support them, not imprint my own social mores upon them! The fundamentalists are not the norm here in the UK and, where they are, are being challenged daily. Helping those women who want to challenge it from within is something I would support. "Rescuing" them because their religion doesn't meet my approval is not!

Would you also support women (whether Mormon fundamentalist or ultra-conservative Muslim) in adhering to the obligations of polygyny? Yes, in exactly the same way as I described above![/quote]
I absolutely agree. The very fact the woman works outside of the home means she is already challenging the patriarchal oppression of her religion. What a bloody marvellous thing she is doing. What a bloody awful thing Andrea is doing to her. His actions will only serve to curb the freedoms she is already fighting to achieve.

No.

If they're gender fluid they aren't a woman are they.

I wish these fuckers would STOP trying to make women touch them, who don't want to.

Fucking creeps.

I'm sure you're posting this because you care so much about muslims.