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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman's Hour today (Monday) discussing the change back to single sex toilets

80 replies

nauticant · 17/05/2021 10:04

They're requesting texts and emails for the discussion later on in the programme.

OP posts:
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 17/05/2021 12:27

Still, this is a huge step forward for WH.

Strikes me that someone has picked up on the fury that MF wasn't interviewed about her case. Or any discussion about the impact of the loss of our rights in law.

And to have two mighty GC brains on the programme - I think that this is positive.

Bet EB is GC. Bet she is. She's got endo, she understands what it is to be female.

Minezatea · 17/05/2021 12:27

The obvious and only solution is single sex AND unisex provisions available. Because inclusion means it works for everyone's access.

In an ideal world yes but in so many places this just won't be possible. I think we need solutions that work within existing facilities.

Mollyollydolly · 17/05/2021 12:40

At least they discussed it. I suppose they feel they have 'permission' because it's come from the government. They have to have a good reason to discuss anything about women's sex based rights and not just sweep it under that massive bloody rug. I'd love to see a breakdown of the responses from listeners.

IvyTwines2 · 17/05/2021 12:41

@Minezatea

The obvious and only solution is single sex AND unisex provisions available. Because inclusion means it works for everyone's access.

In an ideal world yes but in so many places this just won't be possible. I think we need solutions that work within existing facilities.

There's at least one theatre which has kept the women's single sex and made the men's 'gender neutral'. This also solves the problem of the interval queue, typically much longer for the women's than the men's in theatres with single sex toilets. Now, those who feel comfortable sharing a space can use the mixed sex / gender neutral toilets, while those of us who don't can use the women's.
nauticant · 17/05/2021 12:47

Inevitably: twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1394250715502190592

OP posts:
Thecatonthemat · 17/05/2021 14:30

Yes Ash really used a completely idiotic argument here...only just listened to the programme... a bit of a change at last but why should trans people have the right to comment on women’s single sex facilities? ( I include transmen in the category of women) I was surprised by EB asking why men don’t like taking their babies into male toilets. Surely the reasons are clear as day? I do think letters and emails are scrupulously checked and dismissed if they are from women that want sex protected facilities.

Erikrie · 17/05/2021 15:04

A gender neutral toilet in my house. Ffs. Shared with my children and my partner. I don't just let anyone in off the street to use my gender neutral toilet. I'm embarrassed for people who think this argument is in anyway rational.

Erikrie · 17/05/2021 15:05

Apparently it's #InternationalDayAgainstHomo-Bi-Transphobia - who knew?!

Another day for the T then. That's nice 🙄

FloatOn · 17/05/2021 15:12

I answered a crazy on twitter who said that all toilets should be gender neutral as there is no proof that they are more dangerous (wtaf?) and all the people who have liked his tweet are male, not one woman or transperson.
Why do these men want access to womens facilities?!

babbaloushka · 17/05/2021 15:21

@FloatOn

I answered a crazy on twitter who said that all toilets should be gender neutral as there is no proof that they are more dangerous (wtaf?) and all the people who have liked his tweet are male, not one woman or transperson. Why do these men want access to womens facilities?!
To give us love and support, obviously. It's bollocks. Single sex toilets have been a sanctuary for women since I was a teen being tailed by a seedy man in a shopping centre.
Lonel · 17/05/2021 15:29

It really pisses me off the way we're taught to think 'they way they do things on the Continent' is so superior and progressive.
And you just know that when someone says "on the continent" they actually have no idea what they are talking about. Are they saying that everything is exactly the same from Helsinki to Alicante?

SmokedDuck · 17/05/2021 15:45

There's at least one theatre which has kept the women's single sex and made the men's 'gender neutral'. This also solves the problem of the interval queue, typically much longer for the women's than the men's in theatres with single sex toilets. Now, those who feel comfortable sharing a space can use the mixed sex / gender neutral toilets, while those of us who don't can use the women's.

The assumption with this however is that no men care about privacy from women in the toilets, which is certainly not true.

RedDogsBeg · 17/05/2021 16:15

I'm finding all the bleating on Twitter about there being no TW interviewed highly amusing, it was a discussion about single sex toilets for women that's why. They just can't stand the world not revolving around them can they.

Zeev · 17/05/2021 16:16

@RedDogsBeg

Here we go from mimmymum on Twitter:

Why are you platforming two trans-hostile campaigners - especially on #IDAHOBIT2021 - without including trans-inclusive feminist voices which represent the MAJORITY opinion?

Stoking hostility against trans people for listening figures on #IDAHOBIT is NOT a good look BBC!

Trans-hostile, the usual pathetic hyperbole. As for the majority opinion comment, time an again it has been shown that public opinion is not on the side of the TRAs.

Could mimmymum perhaps helpfully highlight the few days left in the calendar that are NOT trans special holidays? It's hard to know when every day that ends with a y seems to be a trans day.
UnkindlyMay · 17/05/2021 16:31

@Warmduscher

Perhaps they could follow their own advice which they so readily give out to women - get over it or if you are assaulted all you have to do is call the Police or the real peach if anyone wanted to assault you then they would, a sign on the door wouldn't stop them.

Exactly. But it’s always “Do as I say, not as I do” isn’t it?

The trans person I’m personally concerned about is a very young, small and rather naive female (a trans man) and I would prefer not to be too cavalier with their physical OR mental safety.
Artichokeleaves · 17/05/2021 16:32

In an ideal world yes but in so many places this just won't be possible. I think we need solutions that work within existing facilities.

Not wishing to be rude, but actually its very possible, and the blueprint already exists in all local authorities from enforcing the creation of accessible disabled toilets. That took maybe five years from nothing to standard and everywhere.

stage 1) legal bill requiring it, all new builds only passed if holding single sex AND unisex facilities, size of building, budget and number of users taken into account in expectations of what should be provided proportionally, and how quickly.

stage 2) Local Authority sort out funding grants for public places like schools, churches, village halls, etc, make it part of their inclusion brief for staff to go out and advise and gently deal with the kick off about we can't do it, there's no room, there's no budget. All of that happened with disabled loos, once everyone realised they did have to do it, budget would be found and helped where necessary they got on with it. Those LA staff also provide the expectation and legal back up of this isn't optional.

stage 3) as with other accessibility things such as trains, buses, disabled changing facilities, ramps, pavements kept clear for wheelchairs, it takes banging on, persistence and the gradual realisation that you don't want to get sued for lack of accessibility.

The disabled lobby did not have massive, government funded, very wealthy political lobby groups with the direct ear of government, all political parties lining up to help, half the businesses of the UK labelled 'disability champions' with their status based on following a political lobby's expectations, the massive ear of the press, a lot of wealthy donors and a fuckton of women desperate to just be left alone rather than be excluded from single sex spaces. This could very easily and quickly be achieved, if it was a wanted outcome.

UnkindlyMay · 17/05/2021 16:33

So, on a purely selfish level, I’d like her to have the option of sliding discreetly into a mixed-sex, preferably single-occupancy toilet rather than risking the men’s or heading with a wispy new beard into the Ladies.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 17/05/2021 16:40

Oh! Helen is still being a transphobe is she?

Mimmybirthingperson - as so many have said!!??

Come on Helen, catch up!

Theeyeballsinthesky · 17/05/2021 16:43

Yes what is it with all the “well on the continent” stuff?

I go to portugal a lot & I have only ever seen single sex toilets other than in the occasional cafe where it’s a fully self contained toilet with wash basin because they only have room for one loo

FloatOn · 17/05/2021 16:47

I'm finding all the bleating on Twitter about there being no TW interviewed highly amusing, it was a discussion about single sex toilets for women that's why. They just can't stand the world not revolving around them can they.

This is my current reply to all those piling on me on twitter, I never mentioned TW they jumped to that conclusion, feels a bit transphobic tbh.

Tibtom · 17/05/2021 17:03

On the continent?

I remember french motorway service station loos: single sex but Envy (not envy)

Letsgetreadytocrumble · 17/05/2021 17:24

Not Ash Sarkar pulling out the 'you have a gender neutral toilet in your house' argument, WTAF?!

I seriously don't understand how someone so apparently monumentally thick can run their own media company and get invited on TV to speak on the regular? Just.... How?

YouSetTheTone · 17/05/2021 18:21

I don’t know what kind of weird communal gender neutral toilet Ash Sarkar has in her house but in mine we have single sex provisions actually. Individuals of either sex use the loo/ bathroom alone Confused

I have a kitchen in my house too and I cook for people I’ve invited to my house. But I don’t run a catering establishment for strangers off the street. Am I getting her argument right?

SpindleWhorl · 17/05/2021 18:25

I don't think she quite gets the difference between 'private' and 'public'.

I wonder if there are any other binaries she struggles with?

Floisme · 17/05/2021 18:26

Yes I must admit I always wonder about the living arrangements of those who insist this is a compelling argument.

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