Should MN have a Gender Identity (or similar) subsection?

[TheThermalStair]

I used to be a really active member of this board, for years. Similar with real life groups. Now there are very few discussions about most feminist issues, and tonnes and tonnes about trans/gender identity issues.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND why people are interested in talking about this, on all sides. But I miss discussions about other issues. To me having a feminist board that seems to be 90% gender chat isn't representative of the feminist issues that women face in the UK let alone in the rest of the world. The alternative would be to have a "non trans/gender identity related feminist chat board" but that feels pretty silly. Is it just me that feels this way?

Really appreciate this discussion, it’s been v helpful for me (that’s just autocorrected to “men”, the irony).

I have totally experienced/felt too scared to talk about many of the things discussed on this board so I do understand its value. Tbh when people say “it’s much worse for trans women” I usually just ask them to show me the figures because really there aren’t any. It’s just become a “truth”.

It’s just become a “truth”.

It has.

@TheThermalStair

Haha thanks *@Babdoc* I expected posters to say this TBH (have been told the same by friends in real life) but while I understand the concerns it's hardly the ONLY issue going on for women and girls is it? So more like if the Titanic was hitting several smaller icebergs and everyone was just pointing at one?

I would argue that any issue that is attempting to redefine what a woman is, and also impacts on the safeguarding of women and girls, should be at the forefront of feminism. How can we fight for women’s rights if we can’t say what a woman is?

”I can see why it might come across that way but it's more a bit nostalgic, and wondering if some of the old energy across the feminist spectrum is still out there/could be revived.”

You might have missed it, but the ManFriday campaign was spawned here on Mumsnet and other feminist campaigns have been created or supported. The energy is still here, but the direction isn’t the one you would prefer/are comfortable with, and I think that’s just the way it is right now.

The suggestion that women discussing their rights are similar to racists is incredibly offensive, BlackCatShadow. We’ve seen recently in a number of threads that were posted on AIBU, the vast majority of women on Mumsnet agree with the gender critical position. It’s unlikely huge numbers of women have suddenly become evil bigots. Tolerance and acceptance of “LGBT” has fallen for the first time among younger groups in the US, especially young women. Is that just women being mean too, or might it be that perhaps some of the current activism is no longer reasonable or fair and women in many different walks of life are beginning to notice and object?

eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/06/24/lgbtq-acceptance-millennials-decline-glaad-survey/1503758001/

That is a really striking change. Under 34s are more more uncomfortable with LGBTQ+ people than any other age group.

I'll bet anything they're not remotely uncomfortable with LGB.

That's my age group. As you say, not remotely uncomfortably with LGB.

“It’s not that I find the GC talk overwhelming. I find it genuinely disturbing. It’s like being stuck at a dinner party surrounded by racists ranting on about how right they are, It’s just so hateful and I think it stands against everything that feminism should be about. But I will do as a previous poster suggested and try Reddit. It sounds more my kind of place.“

Do you have any idea how many women of colour are here because we are now finding ourselves unable to talk about our own bodies without being referred to as black it brown birthing bodies or to be able to discuss FGM without men inserting themselves into the conversation?

I think you don’t understand what racism actually is.

In fact to even say that shows such a misunderstanding of what is happening it’s absolutely mind blowing. I have a headache now from the lack of awareness.

I also remember one poster pointing out that toys will be toys has Mumsnet roots.
That campaign is about as GC as they come.

You know what is hateful? Calling women cervix havers and vagina owners, removing the word MOTHER from maternal literature, encouraging girls to cut their breasts off, telling lesbians to accept penises. Telling FGM survivors they shouldn’t talk about their bodies.

Ffs

Locking men into prison cells with terrified female prisoners. That's another hateful thing.

How about the creepy trolls who haunt women's refuge centres too? Also hateful.

But no. No its the women who have a problem, those bitches.

@Wandawomble

You know what is hateful? Calling women cervix havers and vagina owners, removing the word MOTHER from maternal literature, encouraging girls to cut their breasts off, telling lesbians to accept penises. Telling FGM survivors they shouldn’t talk about their bodies.

Ffs

Also hateful is the common TRA strategy of saying that transwomen are women in the same way that black and brown women are women. Now that's fucking racist.

Instead of trying to change a very well frequented and much needed board, why don’t people who feel alienated by the gender critical posts campaign for an Intersectional Feminism Board?

I’m not trying to say that gender critical and intersectional are diametrically opposed, by the way. It’s just that many complaints seem to be that this board is too white or too focused on trans issues. I thought about suggesting a third wave board, but imagined that would be taken as much more of an insult. Being intersectional is generally thought of as being a good thing, but would indicate a different priority.

"Removing women's ability to describe themselves as a group is the ultimate act of male oppression" ( Twitter wise woman)"

Feminism is all about fighting the patriarchy and unfortunately when people say women trying to define themselves is anti trans then unfortunately that makes them anti women and fighting against this is precisely what a feminist board should be for.

They could turn the feminist theory board into intersectional feminism. Nobody is using that board anyway.

It's probably also worth considering that discussions which would be corralled into a feminist board on other sites are freely discussed elsewhere on mumsnet.

Eg
awareness of domestic abuse
Pregnancy discrimination
Unequal workload of domestic chores/caring responsibilities
Difficulties in getting medical diagnosis and/or treatment to name just a few.

I agree with you OP.

Here's the truth, lots of posters here are angry that trans people want to be centered in discussions that should be about sex. But if you turn up here and start a thread that's not about gender criticism you'll get hardly any responses or someone will turn up and demand you centre gender criticism in your approach to the issue.

I tried posting threads on other feminist topics enough times to get fed up and not bother now.

As much as there are genuine issues, there are absolutely people here who are not feminists and want us distracted and focusing on trans people at all times. I am disheartened at how many people buy into their posts. Some of these are probably the old MRAs delighted to have found a way to get feminists on side and angry at other feminists. (I think this is true of the TRA side as well by the way, but if you think they've all become TRAs ask yourself how likely that is)

Intersectional means nothing now.

demand you centre gender criticism in your approach to the issue

How do they do that then

If women can't define themselves and the meaning of words such as 'woman' and 'female' become nebulous, I don't know how how 'feminism' can exist.

For instance, not so long ago I was part if a discussion where a TRA claimed that the issue of giving birth wasn't wholly a feminist issue (because not only women give birth).

When even childbirth ceases to be seen as an experience undergone only by females, where are we? And here I must include the standard caveat that not all women give birth but only women give birth.

Who is feminism for? What is a feminist issue as distinct from a human rights issue, generally?

I absolutely love the idea that mens rights activists are posting things like "hey, who doesn't think we should be locking men up with women? Amirite? Hah, that'll show the feminists."

I really like this board and have received some fantastic advice and support and a lot of food for thought on various subjects facing women. I’ve had a few name changes over the years but the threads I’ve had on here that have got most interest have been about everyday issues like feeling threatened by men in public places, the need to sexualise appearances and who benefits. These are issues that effect me in my life and lots of other women. Unfortunately the trans issues do dominate the boards and I believe they are really important issues affecting all women currently, so need to be discussed and implications understood. Most posters are generally and I believe genuinely respectful but these are subjects that are emotive and these women have nowhere else to talk. Get some new threads up and I will definitely be reading and if I feel I can contribute I will, as will many many other women.