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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Accused of transphobia

55 replies

AtalantaRun · 13/05/2021 20:29

Just need to vent really. I'm part of a private Facebook group for people who have bought a particular gentle parenting course. It's a very nicey nicey group, a fairly large proportion of American members. Overall a good place where people are generally respectful to each other and helpful.

Someone asked about info around gender non conforming children and I posted my experiences with my son, who was very 'feminine' in some of his interests and still is. The thrust of my post was I support him to have any interest or preference he wants, but don't make a big deal out of it. I'll add my post to the bottom of this one.

I get a reply about how I'm not supporting him by not talking too much about it and society will tell him anyway and I could cause him to be overwhelmed, that it sounded like I was only willing to support him to a point and stuff about trans kids identities. I replied reiterating the way I support him, including that I want him to grow up not seeing certain things as only for girls and vice versa. That I have spoken to him when it's arisen but mostly it doesn't. I get a reply about how I need to "unpack" what I'm thinking and continued implication I'm less than supportive and understanding etc.

At this point I'm really stressed. Why am I so stressed?? I just find this kind of conversation makes me really on edge. The woman publicly standing up against all this are just awe inspiring to me because I find even a private group thread impossible.

I decide it's silly to be stressed over a stranger on social media, but can't find how to mute a specific conversation on Facebook like you can twitter, so just delete my replies. I don't want notifications anymore. So then this person posts again saying my transphobia is concerning and they think while it's great I've realised I've done wrong, my comments shouldnt be allowed to be deleted. They strawman paraphrase me saying "it's not regressive to support a child supporting gender" when what I'd actually said was "it's regressive to tell a child you doesn't have sex stereotypical preferences that they may be born in the wrong body".

Anyway the whole thing just makes me so wound up and anxious and I've got to take my hat off to the many brave women who are not so pathetic as me. I don't know if its a deep need to people please or what that makes it so hard. It feels so obvious to me that kids should be kids but I feel like I'm seen as a monster for it. And judged on my parenting.

Whew. Anyway sorry if you've got this far I just needed to get it off my chest. My original transphobic post is below if anyone is interested.

OP posts:
AtalantaRun · 13/05/2021 20:31

My post on the group:

It depends on age I guess, but if it's not causing them distress I don't really see much need to talk about it, particularly if that conversation risks leading them to reframe their natural temperament and preferences as somehow different. Pointing it out, even ostensibly to 'celebrate' it, just highlights a point of difference, which is hard for a lot of kids. Obviously if a child comes to you unhappy about it that's a different situation.

Instead I think the important thing is to take them as they are and be quietly supportive, while not making a big show of their non conforming nature. Whenever I've read blog posts and articles about 'trans' children, written by their parents, there is more often than not an element of having tried to stop their child, or tried to redirect them to other more stereotypical sex based interests. Given how I see in my kids how much they double down on things if I try and direct them, I often wonder if that approach forces a child to nail their colours to the wall as it were and therefore lose the ability to just be fun, curious and playful about these things.

By quietly supportive I don't mean hiding anything from anyone, I just mean accepting their gender non conforming ways without huge fanfare. My eldest son was very non conforming through to about age 5 (he's nearly 6) and still is in some ways. He liked the female characters best, loved wearing dresses, constantly put trousers on his head to be long hair, play painted his nails (I don't do this so who knows where he got that from), grew his hair long for a while because he wanted princess hair, always pointed out nice dresses, loves pink and sparkles, unicorns, mermaids etc. So I was quietly supportive by treating his interests like any other (which they are, no one minds a girl liking these things, the fact he is a boy is by the by). So he got the princess dresses he wanted for birthdays and Christmases, I helped him make his 'hair' long, his colouring books were unicorns and fairies etc. But I didn't make a fuss about it any more than I would make a fuss about my other son liking stereotypically boy things like dinosaurs and cars. They just like different things.

He wore a princess dress to school on a non uniform day to largely positive response. I didn't say anything to him beforehand as he felt fine going in and I thought even an attempt at saying I was proud of him for doing it would again, highlight the difference when the way I want him to feel is that there aren't male and female toys or ways of dressing, rather than implying he is brave to do something 'different'. As I said mostly it was positive, pretty much all his friends at school are girls and they loved it. He had some slightly mean/questioning comments though from a couple of kids including 'boys don't wear dresses'. When he told me this I just said 'well, boys don't wear dresses that often so some people think that's unusual. I think clothes are just clothes. It's so much fun to dress up as Elsa" and that was enough to make him feel better.

Personally I think two things - one, that people are too quick these days to leap on gender non conforming behaviour, even just to celebrate it, rather than letting kids just have their interests the way they would if they were 'gender conforming' or as I prefer to say 'if they behaved in a way that matches sex stereotypes' which is yes, not the language we use these days but I think brings more clarity to what we are really talking about here. I think if you make it a Big Thing (negatively or positively) you risk the child either feeling they stand out in a bad way OR that they have to stick with their non conforming interests because that makes them special in the eyes of the world and therefore makes it hard to change direction, the ways kids do, if they want to. I think they lose the freedom to explore and be who they are or who they want to be, which should be as conforming or as not as they want to be. And two, it's much harder for boys. Girls who want to play at being a firefighter and hate dresses and love getting muddy are very celebrated and some people even find it hard to have 'girlie' daughters. Feminine boys? Not so cool for some. There's a lot more trans girls (as in male to female) kids than vice versa because I believe society makes more room (not everyone but generally) for tomboyish girls. The ratio shifts in adolescence which is likely linked to the fact that adolescence is arguably harder for girls with the obvious physical changes etc.

Anyway long long post short, I believe in letting kids be kids, as non conforming as they want to be, without either negative or positive fanfare. Why do we give kids exploring a range of interests a label of conforming or not, anyway?

Last caveat, I am looking at this with younger children I guess, being a parent of younger children. I hope to take a similar approach as my son grows though. He's fine as he is and he doesn't need to define himself as any particular label.

OP posts:
AtalantaRun · 13/05/2021 20:32

Sorry for typos on first post. Hopefully it still makes just about enough sense.

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Delphinium20 · 13/05/2021 20:38

You sound like an awesome mom. My first thought is who the hell does that other parent think they are to push their agenda down your family's throat? Also, you wrote such a balanced, loving and accepting (healthy!) post about your son that I just can't believe someone could critique you unless they were some kind of Spanish Inquisitor. They sound like a bully IMHO.

BoredOfCbeebies · 13/05/2021 20:38

Sorry they had a go at you. I think what you've written sounds perfectly reasonable. It's very well written, basically saying kids should be kids, and I can't imagine why anyone would be offended by it!
Hopefully it's just one person mouthing off and everyone else was quietly agreeing with you. Although it's a shame no one had the guts to agree with you publicly. I would have done!

NiceGerbil · 13/05/2021 20:39

Just leave the group and forget the whole thing.

Sorry I don't know what else to say.

Of course you're looking after your child well :)

SunnydaleClassProtector99 · 13/05/2021 20:40

That your thoughtful, well put post got that response tells me the person arguing it's transphobic is stupid.
I'd be tempted to add something like:

In England we have a proud tradition of people subverting gender norms without the need to change their body or perceived gender. My child's teachers and friends shows that a culture of allowing individuality to flourish without trying to put people in boxes produces happy children, which my son is a good example of.

Alternatively I might just say 'bite me.' haha.

OvaHere · 13/05/2021 20:42

I'd just tell them to fuck off, he's your son and you're the one parenting him.

I realise this would get you banned from the group so maybe not helpful advice but to be honest I'd remove myself from the group if this type of response is common.

Alternatively if it's just one person can you block them?

NotTerfNorCis · 13/05/2021 20:43

Well done for posting that on Facebook.

A lot of children show behaviours that aren't gender-typical. I remember one three-year-old boy pretending to breastfeed a doll because his mum was feeding his baby brother. That brother got really into pretend cooking and other 'feminine' games when he was a toddler. It's normal, and any ideology that teaches these behaviours indicate that someone has a gender separate to their sex, is, well...

SunnydaleClassProtector99 · 13/05/2021 20:49

Tell her you've booked an appointment with the doctor.
Then wait a few weeks and then tell her he's going to have surgery.

I know you would never do this but I'd be really, really interested in the response you got from her and if it would prompt anyone else to step in.

PermanentTemporary · 13/05/2021 20:50

Great post. It sounds like a lot of Facebook groups are a very tough environment. I certainly found that with my professional groups- again very US dominated so terrible perspective and priorities were often really different, and there were definitely some in the groups who were there to promote a particular viewpoint.

PermanentTemporary · 13/05/2021 20:51

The priorities not terrible priorities!!

WinstonsWeirdVole · 13/05/2021 20:52

You’re absolutely right, of course, and you sound like a very kind and sensible mum. I think your only mistake is wasting time trying to get people like this to see sense - it’s like a cult: there’s no point using logic/evidence as they’ve totally fallen for the ideology and they enjoy the warm feeling of superiority it gives them far too much to ever question it. IME gentle parenting groups do seem to attract a special type of sanctimonious wanker (which is a shame as there’s a lot of good in that approach).

You can also safely ignore anyone who uses the word “unpack” when they’re not referring to a suitcase Hmm

OneEpisode · 13/05/2021 20:52

If you are able to post that you aren’t in the US, and can they explain the transphobia to you, that might help some of the watchers.
You are not in the us but in a country with a proud tradition of people subverting gender norms without the need to change their body or perceived gender. My child's teachers and friends shows that a culture of allowing individuality to flourish without trying to put people in boxes produces happy children, of which my son is a good example
Stolen from a pp. sorry.
the “in another country” might outwoke them.

Flippanty · 13/05/2021 20:53

Your post is completely non-offensive, well reasoned, and should be just basic common sense! If you tell a boy that the things he likes are just for girls, and also that he can become a girl, guess what will happen?

TheSmallAssassin · 13/05/2021 20:58

My daughter was similarly gender non-conforming from about three to nine or ten. She wanted her hair cut short and wore exclusively "boys'" clothes and shoes. She very briefly went by a male film character's name when she was three. She once or twice said she wished she'd been a boy. Her friends were mostly girls, but she rejected stereotypically girly toys (lots of tears at birthday parties about well meaning presents!). She was often mistaken for a boy - this bothered her more as she grew older, though it didn't make her want to change how she looked. I essentially just let her be and not make it a big deal.

In Year 6, she started growing her hair and wearing more clothes from the "girls'" department and now as a teenager she is not super girly, but she definitely looks and dresses like a girl and likes being a young woman. She hates looking pictures of herself in junior school (which is a real shame, because she was super cute and cool, in my opinion)

She is the reason why I feel strongly that we should act just as you (and I did), we should be ditching stereotypes, not rewarding conforming or not conforming and just let our kids get on with it.

romdowa · 13/05/2021 20:58

Your post is very reasonable and balanced. But you are not dealing with reasonable and balanced people. When my brother was 3 he went through a phase of wanting his nails painted , he used to wear a hairband and wanted to be called sue. We all went along with it. Never encouraged it or prohibited it and he Soon forgot all about being sue. In today's world my mother would have been lambasted for not encouraging him and changing his pronouns etc.

AtalantaRun · 13/05/2021 20:59

Thanks for the quick responses, which have made me feel better. Which is possibly even more lame than being pissed off in the first place Grin I know it's ridiculous to let her get to me! I just get so frustrated, I know what I've said is so reasonable and yet I don't seem to have the backbone to just stand by it and take what comes. I'd like to stay in the group ideally because other elements of it are really useful.

I like the doctor idea. I could go back in a few months and tag her apologetically thanking her for her view and what we are now doing to transition my son...

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AtalantaRun · 13/05/2021 21:00

@romdowa

Your post is very reasonable and balanced. But you are not dealing with reasonable and balanced people. When my brother was 3 he went through a phase of wanting his nails painted , he used to wear a hairband and wanted to be called sue. We all went along with it. Never encouraged it or prohibited it and he Soon forgot all about being sue. In today's world my mother would have been lambasted for not encouraging him and changing his pronouns etc.
It's so strange isn't it. Letting behaviour like that just be used to be progressive. Now it's considered by some to be as bad as enforcing strict gender roles, saying boys don't cry etc. I seem to be becoming right wing on this without moving at all.
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AtalantaRun · 13/05/2021 21:02

@SunnydaleClassProtector99

That your thoughtful, well put post got that response tells me the person arguing it's transphobic is stupid. I'd be tempted to add something like:

In England we have a proud tradition of people subverting gender norms without the need to change their body or perceived gender. My child's teachers and friends shows that a culture of allowing individuality to flourish without trying to put people in boxes produces happy children, which my son is a good example of.

Alternatively I might just say 'bite me.' haha.

This is a good idea
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viques · 13/05/2021 21:03

I think your post is great, and your attitude perfect for a small child who knows what he likes and hasn’t yet absorbed that in some peoples thinking that categorises him for all time.

Why are we doing this to children? We all know they go through stages of liking and not liking, it happens with lots of things in their lives, food, toys, books, tv programmes etc etc, but as soon as it happens with clothes or hair assumptions are made.

We accept that a six year old declaring they don’t want to eat something doesn’t mean they have made a lifetime choice about that food. Why can’t we accept that a child declaring they don’t want to wear something could equally be a passing phase.

winched · 13/05/2021 21:04

Personally I think two things - one, that people are too quick these days to leap on gender non conforming behaviour, even just to celebrate it, rather than letting kids just have their interests the way they would if they were 'gender conforming' or as I prefer to say 'if they behaved in a way that matches sex stereotypes' which is yes, not the language we use these days but I think brings more clarity to what we are really talking about here.

I feel exactly the same way you do, and have what sounds like a very similar child, and a very similar approach (with the exception that mine is a girl).

Before age 5 she is exactly what would have been called a tomboy. At nearly 7 she's still mostly a "tomboy" although has developed a sense of style that includes dresses and doesn't recoil in horror at the sight of pink like she did age 3 when everything HAD to be blue.

I often wonder what would have happened to the tomboys of my youth if they'd been born now (and I'm 29 - hardly donkeys years ago!). I was friends with a girl who wore tracksuits, had her hair the same as the boys (curtain style Grin) and played for the boys football team. She was just a tomboy 🤷🏻‍♀️ there was no massive song and dance in either direction - either by people saying she shouldn't have liked the things she did or presented in the ways she did OR saying how great it was that she liked the things she did and presented the ways she did.

She was just a tomboy.

She's now a "typically feminine" - whatever the hell that means - lesbian, and I guess her partner is what you'd call "typically butch" or whatever a tomboy grows into.

My youngest daughter (the tomboy) is cousins with a boy who is very into princesses dresses and nail polish. She explained to her older sister (who is currently going through the inclusive education at school and said X might be trans) that "X is just a tomgirl! Isn't he mum?" 😂

I would just quietly disengage from the group. It's ridiculous that you have to, because your post sounds incredibly well written and I absolutely agree with all of it... but people look for ways to crucify you no matter what. The Twitter righteousness is creeping into all forms of social media, and it's sad.

stonecat · 13/05/2021 21:07

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romdowa · 13/05/2021 21:07

Some people just can't let children be children any more. They don't seem to understand how children develop. They need to explore different activities and "roles " to learn and grow. It doesn't mean they are in the wrong body.

AtalantaRun · 13/05/2021 21:09

It's interesting hearing about girls in a similar situation, and possibly I was wrong to say its harder for boys. That may be my own worries about my son being bullied by others. I guess I just felt I'd read more stories about younger 'trans girls'. It's lovely to hear stories of them growing up into their own person.

A close friend of mine was absolutely certain she was meant to be a boy throughout her teenage years. She's now a fairly feminine women, a mother, who is breastfeeding her daughter. It's scary to think how different things could be for her if she grew up now.

It's absolutely true though we don't think 'well, little Johnny dislikes carrots so that's that forever'. My youngest would be consigned to a life of sausages, carrots and pom bears if that was true Grin

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FlossieTeacakesFurCoat18 · 13/05/2021 21:12

Your post add your parenting big sind absolutely brilliant. I'm pretty sure that person is being aggressive towards you because your approach is showing up the massive, sexist holes in theirs!