BBC3 - women's violence against men

[Clymene]

My 14 DS told me he'd seen this BBC3 video and how awful it was that people won't intervene when women are assaulting men whereas they will when men assault women

The video ends with a v/o that the number of women convicted of domestic violence went up nearly 4 times between 2006 and 2016.

These are the messages my DS took away from it:
-Men are more likely to be hurt if they're physically assaulted by women in public than the other way round
-Women are getting much more violent and are nearly as violent as men
-As a man, he is probably at as much risk as a woman of being a victim of dv.

Despite the seemingly alarming rise in WVAM (which I haven't fact checked), men are still responsible for 97% of domestic violence. I had to tell my DS that though because the BBC certainly didn't make that clear.

In fact, the video very much gives the impression that women are as bad as men and I don't think my son's dubious conclusions were unfair. In fact, I'd say they were exactly the conclusions the video is encouraging.

Why?

@flygirl1983

"You twat". Seriously? You're a dude.

Women use the word twat in the UK. It's not particularly classy but I was angry and I've had some drinks. I should probably go to bed, but Lemmen is just trying to score points because she doesn't agree with my views.

I might even get banned but fuck it I'm pretty much done with this place.

Can I just say that the stats on lesbian relationships being most violent have been widely debunked for absolute years.

Women in lesbian relationships are most likely to report being victims of domestic violence, yes. But when the stats are dug into this is firstly primarily in previous relationships with men, and secondly from previous male partners of their current partner.

Also, on the ONS stats for male victims of domestic violence, this ALSO includes men attacked by the previous male partners of their current partner, or the current male partners of their former partners.

So for both heterosexual men, and homosexual women, the stats are increased not by female perpetrator violence but by the wider definition of domestic violence to include linked male perpetrators.

For men, the significant risk of domestic violence comes instead from intra-familial violence, mostly from parents to adult children although it is very likely that violence from post-pubertal children to adults is under reported.

@MoltenLasagne

Can I just say that the stats on lesbian relationships being most violent have been widely debunked for absolute years.

Women in lesbian relationships are most likely to report being victims of domestic violence, yes. But when the stats are dug into this is firstly primarily in previous relationships with men, and secondly from previous male partners of their current partner.

Also, on the ONS stats for male victims of domestic violence, this ALSO includes men attacked by the previous male partners of their current partner, or the current male partners of their former partners.

So for both heterosexual men, and homosexual women, the stats are increased not by female perpetrator violence but by the wider definition of domestic violence to include linked male perpetrators.

For men, the significant risk of domestic violence comes instead from intra-familial violence, mostly from parents to adult children although it is very likely that violence from post-pubertal children to adults is under reported.

Thank you. I was wrong in my relationship. I just wasn't worse than I got. I thought my experience might me material in this thread.

And I don't have a BMW. 🙂

I didn't know that about the lesbian relationship stat, thanks for posting Molten.

[quote WatchingPaintWet]@MrsTroutfireVII I just wanted to point out that the way you describe your friend ("not a bad guy", "bad decision", "just lost control", "I'm not saying it's ok, but...") is exactly how almost all domestic abusers (of all severities and frequencies) speak about themselves when they can't deny actual violence. It's also how friends or family of theirs speak about them when they want to justify sticking by them. The next step is usually to further and further impune the character of the victim - subtly or otherwise - or push the 'six of one, half a dozen of the other' narrative to justify it.

I'm truly not saying this to be goady, just as one to watch out for because it's harder to spot when you're doing it yourself, I find (and I have certainly found myself doing a similar minimising, applying skewed standards etc. in different contexts where my friends or family have been concerned). [/quote]
I did actually think that as I wrote it.

However, I've known the guy for 20 years and he is a good father to one of the nicest, gentlest boys you'll ever meet and has never been violent before or after. I'm not excusing his behaviour but people make mistakes and this applies to both sexes. At this point it wasn't really about female vs male, they were two people screaming at each other and it got out of hand. She was actually generally worse historically and had kicked him hard in the balls out of nowhere a few times and punched him before. I dont automatically think he was worse for losing it in the heat of the moment just because he's male.

It probably says more about me than him but if somebody keyed my car in front of me when I was already angry I'd probably do more than kick them in the leg. But I don't allow myself to get into escalating arguments and most things can be defused by walking away IME. I've got a good job, a loving partner, and I've got no axe to grind. I'll just laugh if somebody tries to wind me up nowadays.

Lemmon-- Thank you so much.

I have to retire now. I'm going through the criminal justice here as an abuser. I am guilty. But I thought, and still think, I might have something to contribute on this thread.

@MoltenLasagne

Can I just say that the stats on lesbian relationships being most violent have been widely debunked for absolute years.

Women in lesbian relationships are most likely to report being victims of domestic violence, yes. But when the stats are dug into this is firstly primarily in previous relationships with men, and secondly from previous male partners of their current partner.

Also, on the ONS stats for male victims of domestic violence, this ALSO includes men attacked by the previous male partners of their current partner, or the current male partners of their former partners.

So for both heterosexual men, and homosexual women, the stats are increased not by female perpetrator violence but by the wider definition of domestic violence to include linked male perpetrators.

For men, the significant risk of domestic violence comes instead from intra-familial violence, mostly from parents to adult children although it is very likely that violence from post-pubertal children to adults is under reported.

Well, I stand corrected on that bit. I wasn't really making a point about lesbians as the few I've known have been lovely. I just saw that bit while reading about DV and it surprised me.

@flygirl1983

Lemmon-- Thank you so much.

I have to retire now. I'm going through the criminal justice here as an abuser. I am guilty. But I thought, and still think, I might have something to contribute on this thread.

Lemmen! I'm sorry

No worries, and all the best take care of yourself

I think Lemmon is more appropriate given the bitterness....

Sorry that was childish and unnecessary. I'm off to bed too.

@MrsTroutfireVII

Sorry that was childish and unnecessary. I'm off to bed too.

I think I disagree with you on some things, but please don't let that stop you coming back.

Well, I stand corrected on that bit. I wasn't really making a point about lesbians as the few I've known have been lovely. I just saw that bit while reading about DV and it surprised me.

Yes, there has been a concerted effort to skew statistics on domestic violence reporting, so I'm not surprised people will have received an inaccurate view.

Aside from the obfuscation of the sex of perpetrators which falsely give the impression of female violence, tactics include a misbalance of what "domestic violence" covers for male and female victims (notoriously including nagging at one point for male victims but having a hurdle of being intimidating for female victims), a cap on number of incidences of violence for female victims and a lack of recording of whether violence was in fact self defence.

Yes, it almost all feels coordinated doesn't it? I'm not sure which would be more worrying: the idea that it's all happening in a unified but entirely disconnected way, or that a core group might be pushing it.

As for the programme, I think BBC3 would do better covering coercive behaviour which is far more likely to be a problem in young relationships as people learn about setting healthy boundaries.

I don't know stats on this, but anecdotally it certainly seems to be an even problem for young men and women in similar age partnerships. It only appears to become more of a concern for girls / young women when they are dating older men.

But of course that assumes that BBC3 are wanting to provide helpful content to young men embarking on relationships rather than getting kicks out of proliferating inaccurate information to demonise women.

@Lemmen

Yes, it almost all feels coordinated doesn't it? I'm not sure which would be more worrying: the idea that it's all happening in a unified but entirely disconnected way, or that a core group might be pushing it.

I think there's multiple strands - MRA groups who intentionally misreport data, academics who want to find novel data so repeatedly stating that men are more violent gets a bit dull, laziness in statistic gathering across different police forces (this one gets really frustrating if you dig into the ONS stats) and poor quality journalistic reporting of data.

Plus of course the fact that "dog bites man" doesn't sell newspapers but "man bites dog" does which leads to significant over reporting of cases of female violence. Oh and, how can I forget, the fact that much of the reported "female" violence at the moment is anything but. But of course TWAW according to IPSO and damn the accuracy of crime stats.

I think I disagree with you on some things, but please don't let that stop you coming back.

Thanks. I hope things work out for you as you seem to be a pretty rational person who's ended up in a bad situation.

I think I went a bit OTT on this thread and will probably read it with embarrassment when I'm sober but I definitely disagree with some views. I probably also agree with posters on lots of other things but I don't put either sex on a pinnacle as honestly I was no angel when younger and there are undoubtedly lots of other women like I was.

Pedestal not pinnacle

Hmm, Troutfire/Doubtfire, have we got a poster flying under false colours, I wonder? The name could be a big clue, and it would explain a lot. 🤔

@Lemmen

I didn't know that about the lesbian relationship stat, thanks for posting Molten.

I did know that about lesbian relationships (a statement which wasn't backed up) which is why I haven't gone through all the reams of studies posted which contradict the police and government (so not just over invested feminists) in acknowledging that MVAW is a much bigger problem than WVAM.

I don't think the poster is posting in good faith.

The stats about MVAM are inflated because they are more likely to be involved in fights in pubs, gangs, drugs. They aren't more likely than women to be grabbed from the street or park and murdered like Julia James or Sarah Everard or Bibaa Henry or Nicole Smallman.

I have not got time or energy to engage with posters who post What about the Men. I commend those of you who can be bothered!

@flygirl1983  - I'm so sorry, that's horrendous

@NiceGerbil - I've spoken to DS and it's fine, thanks. No girlfriend and no danger of him getting one any time soon.

That's good news OP. Did he accept your points? And seem genuine, or just going along with it to get you to stop talking to him about it I mean we've all been teens haven't we.

The thing I find about the arguments around this are things like.

'I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there is much data to suggest that men face domestic violence in similar amounts, yet it's completely ignored - I mean, how many shelters for men are there?'

Do men need the same type of support to leave, on the whole? I've read that they don't. They don't generally want shelters, they want other kinds of things. The oh look no shelters point seems popular but I think it shows that the people who post it aren't actually engaged in activism to help men etc. It's the usual sour grapes 'why should xyz get this stuff what makes them so special'.

Similarly, I have no trouble believing that plenty of men are emotionally/ verbally bullied etc at home by partners. It comes back to the mode of abuse. Again, those who have a particular interest in that issue, could/should be donating to/ volunteering for/ thinking about new ways to help etc men who are in those situations. That's never mentioned though. It always seems to be just arguing with those whose primary focus is women and girls, that they don't care about men and are mean. Which does nothing to help men who are in situations they feel trapped in.

The inevitable women do it too. So using stats concerning a wide range of abusive behaviours and saying yeah women die more but what about this, eh? Crass.

And the total failure or refusal to grasp the obvious differences that are almost always in place.

Me and my brother used to get on v well but also bicker and fight. Normal. Puberty hit and he could suddenly overpower me easily. The first fight we had once he started shocked us both as he overpowered me easily and 'didn't know his own strength'. We didn't fight physically again after that.

My DH could kill me easily if he wished. He could do anything. I wouldn't be able to stop him. If I wanted to injure him physically I would need to be armed and catch him by surprise. And even then I'd have to be lucky.

Then of course there is sexual violence.

To handwave all that away is grim. Also I think that many men simply do not understand how much smaller/ weaker in general women are. I was talking about this to a pissed mate of DH the other night and he was adamant that women could defend themselves without trouble. He's maybe 6'4. He said just knee them in the balls and run. So we stood up and I pointed out to knee him in the groin I had to bring it up to the middle of my chest! He still wouldn't have it. He's not horrible or anything. I just don't think they really notice or think about it at all.

Sorry essay.

In short if they really cared they'd firstly be talking to groups that support men not coming on here!

And if they did come on here they'd say maybe women have more experience at this any ideas of what can be done. And I'm sure there would be plenty as on the whole we're really quite nice

And suggest they supported orgs like

www.mankind.org.uk/
mensadviceline.org.uk/ (don't know much about this org but pages seem to offer lots of support)
www.refuge.org.uk/get-help-now/help-for-men/

There may well be more and local things as well.

So to troutfire. You can help. Donate, volunteer etc. That's much more useful than telling Feminists off.

Well said, NiceGerbil! 👏