BBC3 - women's violence against men

[Clymene]

My 14 DS told me he'd seen this BBC3 video and how awful it was that people won't intervene when women are assaulting men whereas they will when men assault women

The video ends with a v/o that the number of women convicted of domestic violence went up nearly 4 times between 2006 and 2016.

These are the messages my DS took away from it:
-Men are more likely to be hurt if they're physically assaulted by women in public than the other way round
-Women are getting much more violent and are nearly as violent as men
-As a man, he is probably at as much risk as a woman of being a victim of dv.

Despite the seemingly alarming rise in WVAM (which I haven't fact checked), men are still responsible for 97% of domestic violence. I had to tell my DS that though because the BBC certainly didn't make that clear.

In fact, the video very much gives the impression that women are as bad as men and I don't think my son's dubious conclusions were unfair. In fact, I'd say they were exactly the conclusions the video is encouraging.

Why?

Clymene, sit down with your DS and look at the deaths. That's where the really serious violence is. Karen Ingala Smith's site Countimg Dead Women is a decent starting place. It's not just DV, of course, but he will begin to get some perspective.

Then check out the national figures, though it can be a bit hard to unpick.

The big question about gender violence is "Who dies?"

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@CharlieParley
Well, your first paper did not look at the sex of the perpetrators, so I'm not sure why you linked to it here.

Yes it did

“IPV typically involves both male and female perpetrators and victims.”[/quote]
That is an assertion the authors of that paper make at the very beginning without quantifying it or providing any evidence.

Now we know that there are female abusers - violence, although predominantly carried out by men, is not limited to men alone. So I do not doubt your assertion that violence is not exclusively a male crime. I was just questioning why you linked to that paper as it didn't look into perpetrators at all. (There's also some dubious reasoning and methodology issues, but that's by the by.)

Here’s a couple of articles from Australia which might explain some of the statistical anomalies. I imagine police forces the world over have similar attitudes.

“Almost half the women murdered by an intimate partner in Queensland had previously been labelled by police as the perpetrator of domestic violence, research shows.”

“I’m aware myself of some examples where there has been what I would describe as poor treatment [of women]. To leap to a conclusion these attitudes are born out of some sort of women-hating perspective, [I don’t accept] that.”
www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/may/03/women-murdered-by-husbands-labelled-perpetrators-of-domestic-violence-by-queensland-police?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

“An ABC News investigation has found police in Australia are too often failing to take action against domestic violence perpetrators in their ranks, fuelling a culture of impunity in law enforcement agencies across the country and putting victims’ safety at risk.”
mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-19/police-in-australia-are-failing-to-take-action-against-domestic/12757914?nw=0&pfmredir=sm

Men are responsible for 97% of reported domestic violence crimes. A couple of studies were done in last few years where they asked women if they'd ever hit their partners (instead of asking men if they'd been victims) and apparently the figure was much higher than in previous studies and pretty much on par with the number of men who hit their partners, leading them to conclude that men don't like to admit they're victims due to being seen as weak.

Of course, men murder much more often, likely due to the higher disposition for general violence (likely testosterone related) and maybe also the fact that it's much harder for a woman to kill a man.

However, I'd imagine that for every murder there are probably hundreds, maybe thousands of abusive relationships. I've known a few and none of the men reported it - one actually got a criminal record for assault when he finally defended himself (pushed her over to get out the door and escape, at which point she called the police and showed her bruised arm).

I saw a pretty much identical video to the above (on Good Morning tv I think) and the results were the same - everybody helping the women but laughing and filming the men on their phones.

No doubt men are worse perpetrators but we know this and it's well publicised. However, plenty of women seem to get away with it without any comeback.

A quick Google search will show that the data paints an extremely different picture to commonly held beliefs. I was surprised to read that partner violence in same sex relationships was much higher in lesbians than gay men or indeed heterosexual couples, and that many studies found that women were more likely to hit their partners.

Of course the most grievous crimes are usually men murdering women but I do think that we often focus on the '100 murdered women per year' at the expense of the many hundreds of thousands of individuals experiencing regular domestic violence, who seem to be comparatively ignored.

Another big issue is that people who talk about VAM are often quickly shut down and accused of 'having an agenda' or being a misogynist when surely the most sexist thing is to focus on one sex and largely ignore the suffering of the other. It's like men are expected to 'man up' and realise that boys don't cry.

I've never understood why some women campaign against things like International Mens Day and events intended to focus on male suicide etc, as has happened fairly recently at several unis where the IMD events ended up being cancelled, only a couple of days after the suicide of a male student in one case which I find horrifying.

The 2010–2011 report found that whilst 27% of women who experienced IPV reported it to the police, only 10% of men did so, and whilst 44% of women reported to some professional organization, only 19% of men did so.[29]In a 2005 report carried out by the National Crime Council in the Republic of Ireland, it was estimated that 5% of men who had experienced IPV had reported it to the authorities, compared to 29% of women.

In 2012, two Swedish studies were released that showed men experienced IPV at rates similar to women—8% per year in one study and 11% per year in the other.

The earliest empirical evidence of gender symmetry was presented in the 1975 U.S. National Family Violence Survey carried out by Murray A. Straus andRichard J. Gelleson a nationally representative sample of 2,146 "intact families". The survey found 11.6% of women and 12% of men had experienced some kind of IPV in the last twelve months, also 4.6% of men and 3.8% of women had experienced "severe" IPV.

A growing body of international research indicated that men and women experience IPV in some similar proportions. An example might be a recent survey from Canada's national statistical agency that concluded that "equal proportions of men and women reported being victims of spousal violence during the preceding 5 years."

In 2013, the American Centers for Disease Control and Prevention(CDC) found that from a sample of 16,000 U.S. adults, 26% of homosexual men, 37.3% of bisexual men, and 29% of heterosexual men had been a victim of IPV, compared to 43.8% of lesbians, 61.1% of bisexual women and 35% of heterosexual women.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men

Women ‘more likely to hit their partners

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-more-likely-to-hit-their-partners-wx29qb0nwwg

Women are more violent, says study

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-are-more-violent-says-study-622388.html%3famp

@MrsTroutfireVII - this is a thread in feminism. If you'd like to start a thread about violence against men, go ahead but it doesn't belong in here.

Yeah, evidence is all around us of men living in terror of women.

But then again, this proves the absolute need for single sex spaces for men too, keeping them away from our sheer violent heritage.

If it were even, then we'd be seeing three men a week being killed by their wives and girlfriends. It's just not. Anyone can see that. If you don't, then you don't want to.
One of the hardest things I've realised in the last few years is how much women being hurt is nothing more than background noise to lot of people.

Count the deaths. That's the ultimate evidence. Who dies at whose hands?

@OldTurtleNewShell

If it were even, then we'd be seeing three men a week being killed by their wives and girlfriends. It's just not. Anyone can see that. If you don't, then you don't want to. One of the hardest things I've realised in the last few years is how much women being hurt is nothing more than background noise to lot of people.

I don't think this necessarily follows.

It's much harder to kill somebody who is significantly stronger than you, although I do think a large factor is that men are just inherently more violent as is the case with most male mammals.

If say 10% of men suffer domestic abuse then that could be something approaching 300,000 UK men. When you start saying that 100 people dying is many times worse than 300,000 living in abject misery wishing they were dead it's a difficult argument.

Two women a week is two women too many, but I sometimes wonder how many of the 80 men who commit suicide each week are being abused and feel hopeless in a society which paints them as weak, doesn't take it as seriously as female abuse and doesn't provide much support (e.g. cases where men have been told "sorry, we can't help as there are no shelters in your area" which has actually happened).

You say VAWG is 'background noise' but I believe VAM is even more so. They're the vast majority of victims but get hardly any recognition. On here people just say "oh, but it was probably a man who attacked him", but I think that's pretty much tantamount to victim blaming. A gay teenager who gets his head stomped on in a homophobic attack or a black man killed in a racist attack shouldn't be dismissed because their attacker was also a man. The problem is that too many people focus on male/female when things like race and sexuality are equally important factors in the debate.

I care about both sexes equally. I'm only bashing on about men atm because they get totally sidelined as victims of violence despite being the main victims of what people often call 'the biggest human rights crisis known to mankind'. It shouldn't be a competition, we should want to help both sexes and I don't see that on here sometimes. It would also help women to reduce VAM as lack of male role models is one of the biggest factors in young males turning out violent.

Count the deaths. That's the ultimate evidence. Who dies at whose hands?

Something like 3x more men die as a result of violence. Usually by other men but that probably doesn't console the victim's mum. Going by statistics, the focus should be on male victims. Of course, men need to step up too, but it probably doesn't help to keep telling them to focus on VAWG.

[quote Clymene]@MrsTroutfireVII - this is a thread in feminism. If you'd like to start a thread about violence against men, go ahead but it doesn't belong in here. [/quote]
Wow.

So despite the OP being about men being abused by their partners, we're not allowed to acknowledge that it happens, because this is the feminism board, where facts don't matter and only women can be victims?

Once again, this is the feminism board. If you'd like to talk about VAM, please start a thread elsewhere on MN.

Yes facts matter @saraclara. The fact that 3 women a week are killed by their male partners is a fact. The fact that 97% of victims of domestic violence are women and that the perpetrators of that violence are men.

That is the issue I had with the video. I think it's distorting those facts to an impressionable audience.

Would you like to discuss those facts or just your ones?

I care about both sexes equally

If your response to three women a week being murdered by their partners is 'Yes but' and trying pull the focus to the sex who aren't being murdered by their partners at three a week, then no, you really don't.

BBC3 'journalism is shockingly poor. Watch the one about whether universities are racist. BBC3 is after youth audience, especially non mainstream groups.

Do lodge a complaint.

@Clymene

Once again, this is the feminism board. If you'd like to talk about VAM, please start a thread elsewhere on MN.

The thread title is literally 'Women's Violence Against Men'. Did you not expect people to discuss this?

The only reason I can see for you getting annoyed is if you were expecting people to jump in and agree with you that men are terrible and your son is wrong.

If your response to three women a week being murdered by their partners is 'Yes but' and trying pull the focus to the sex whoaren'tbeing murdered by their partners at three a week, then no, you really don't.

This is just whataboutery though. The thread OP is about domestic abuse and women assaulting men.

The fact that 97% of victims of domestic violence are women.

But the numerous studies I've linked don't seem to reflect this. I've posted studies going back to 1975 that claim to have found the incidence to be roughly equal between the sexes, with many stating that men underreport.

Some of the studies had 36,000 participants so that's a lot of evidence. Are you just going to ignore these because they don't fit your agenda? I'm all for helping women but I draw the line at manufacturing false realities.

If only VAWG were a false reality! Intimate partner violence that result in death or injury is overwhelmingly male on female. We know that abusers frequently practise DARVO when law enforcement arrives, claiming self-defence.

The fact that far more men die at the hands of other men helps women victims not one whit and it's not what we're discussing here atm.

Male violence is the massive problem hiding in plain sight and normalised to the point of invisibility.

@MrsTroutfireVII

If your response to three women a week being murdered by their partners is 'Yes but' and trying pull the focus to the sex whoaren'tbeing murdered by their partners at three a week, then no, you really don't.

This is just whataboutery though. The thread OP is about domestic abuse and women assaulting men.

No, the thread is about the BBC making a video aimed at young people which presents the erroneous impression that men are just as likely to be victims of violence by women rather than the truth.

And wondering why that might be.

It's clearly gone over your head.

No, the thread is about the BBC making a video aimed at young people which presents the erroneous impression that men are just as likely to be victims of violence by women rather than the truth.

And wondering why that might be.

It's clearly gone over your head.

Ok, so then surely my posts containing loads of data supporting the claims of the BBC are relevant then?

This is the second post where I've asked you to comment on the multiple studies I've posted spanning almost 50 years and many different countries. I'm wondering why you're so reluctant to acknowledge them. 🤔

I think you need to replace 'the truth' with 'my opinion'.

Also, I've never understood why so many people on here think that the '100 women a year' statistic is some kind of gotcha by which they can make sweeping generalisations about men.

The UK male population is approximately 33 million, so what it actually shows is that approximately one in very 330,000 men is a murderer - i.e. an extremely small proportion of men.

We don't make these sweeping generalisations about other demographics. For example, I'd bet that more than one in every 330,000 black people are in a criminal gang or are a drug dealer, and it would be unthinkable to suggest that black people on the whole are criminals. So why can we make these generalisations about men?

I remember a thought piece where they suggested replacing 'men' with 'black people' or 'Jews' in the title of articles to gauge if they were bigoted, and it was truly enlightening.

Just because lots of people are sexist doesn't make it ok. The 'men are violent' thing is like one of those prejudiced soundbites like 'Polish are taking all our jobs' which is proven to be untrue but yet continues to be parroted by people with a chip on their shoulder. Men are more violent than women but the vast majority aren't objectively violent. One in every 330,000 does not an epidemic make.

You'll always find women on here to agree with you because this place is famous for being an echo chamber, but the vast majority of us don't agree with you and this has been demonstrated in studies.

Here's some more statistics for you. I wonder if you'll dare to make the same generalisations you do about men.

Nearly nine in 10 suspected gang members on police list from minority ethnic groups

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/29/rise-in-proportion-bame-suspects-met-police-gangs-matrix

Your son is 14, does he have a girlfriend?

I'd approach it by saying in general do you think you're more in danger from girls than boys.

Statistically men commit most violent crime. And boys and men know that, I'm sure.

If he thinks boys / men are more likely to be violent than girls/women then how does that square with his reaction to the article?

In general (and not talking about your son specifically at all) I find it interesting how men and boys from a young age seem to dismiss/ not really listen to stuff that happens to women and girls at the hands of men. And get really interested in anything that says women do it too etc.

Especially when in reality they are most at risk from other boys/ men.