Terrified of regressive modern feminism

[TRHR]

By saying "you can't be a woman if you're born without a vagina, and if you're born with a vagina you must be a woman" you're making reproductive organs the defining and most important characteristic of being a woman. This attitude was used to oppress women for centuries. We were baby makers only, and hormonal and chromosomal differences were used to say that we were too "emotional " for public life, education and jobs. Only over the last 100 or so years have our minds and emotions been rightfully recognised as just as important as our vaginas. GC is now going back to seeing our sex organs as our most important identifier and as a feminist and a young woman this really scares me. It is playing right into the traditional patriarchy, is sexist, regressive and oppressive. The fact its being done in the name of 'feminism ' terrifies me. The recent historic implications of insisting women are defined by their bodies scares me. These views are still held by conservative (often religion based) communities and we've all seen how easy it is for these groups to gain power - feminists shouldn't be helping them justify their attitudes or behaviour.

If you've seen/read the Handmaid's Tale you'll know what attitudes I'm afraid of. GCs ironically tell TRAs they are 'handmaids' when actually it is their attitude that has historically led to the oppression that Attwood (who is trans inclusive) bases her books on.

Gender is not a set of stereotypes - it's an identity based on culture, history, society , psychology and often (but not always) sex. It's far more freeing than "vagina = woman" and takes account of each of us as individuals not just bodies, which is what feminism up until now has fought for.
As an example, many trans women don't wear "girly " clothes, they identify as "masculine/butch" lesbians. Many trans men still like wearing make up and dresses e.g. in drag.
Many people would say the world shouldn't be defined as 'male / female' at all. But it always has done, that won't be changed in our lifetime. So seen as that is our social structure, it's oppressive to police how people choose to move through life under this structure based on bodies.
Thanks for reading this far and if I get one extra person to consider the harm that GC is doing, especially to young women of child bearing age, it'll be worth the condescension and vitriol that this post will inevitably receive.

That's not to say I'm not eternally grateful to the women here, and everywhere, who do have the time, inclination and skills to do so!

That is what make FWR work, I feel. So much input from so many different people that the end result is generally greater and deeper understanding.

This is a phenomenal place!

Emma Watson is just a few years younger than me.
However, life for her has shown her one particular side of life which seems to be more compatible with luxury beliefs.
There are women the same age who know the value of single sex spaces (wasn't JK her age when she fled to a refuge?)

I'm very conscious that all the restrictions about what we can say on here mean we tend to take a couple of paragraphs to say something that would only take 3 or 4 words if only we were able to use them. I'm sure that adds to the feeling that you can't post on here unless you have a couple of degrees.

I do find it quite refreshing sometimes when these topics come up on AIBU and posters - whether they agree or not - get straight to the point in a way we don't dare to on here.

Totally totally agree. I am very left wing, progressive, tolerant and I just can’t get my head around the fact that the concept of being trans is simply reinforcing gender stereotypes (how do you “feel” like you’re a woman or a man other than identifying with gender stereotypes?). I thought the future would be gender fluidity, where you could be a female (biologically) but do everything a man would do, wear everything a man would, and still be defined as a woman, because the horizons of what a woman is are so broad and vast. Or vice versa, you could be a biological male and wear skirts, nail polish, heels - and rock it all, as the man you are - because being a man is no longer tied to a narrow path of gender stereotypes. I thought we would be shedding the yoke of “gender” by now, instead we are entrenching it. And one by one, celebrity women that I respect are banging the TWAW drum and I am so lost!

@Dogoodfeelgood

Totally totally agree. I am very left wing, progressive, tolerant and I just can’t get my head around the fact that the concept of being trans is simply reinforcing gender stereotypes (how do you “feel” like you’re a woman or a man other than identifying with gender stereotypes?). I thought the future would be gender fluidity, where you could be a female (biologically) but do everything a man would do, wear everything a man would, and still be defined as a woman, because the horizons of what a woman is are so broad and vast. Or vice versa, you could be a biological male and wear skirts, nail polish, heels - and rock it all, as the man you are - because being a man is no longer tied to a narrow path of gender stereotypes. I thought we would be shedding the yoke of “gender” by now, instead we are entrenching it. And one by one, celebrity women that I respect are banging the TWAW drum and I am so lost!

Yes

And although I find it hard to dredge up some stuff this is where we were studying feminism twenty odd years ago.

Sex is fixed - woman / female XX but gender can be anything

I studied with Shelia Jeffreys lecturing which was great, I’d have to look up what she thinks these days on this.

But the op is incorrect in thinking she’s the only one who’s read feminist texts.

who do have the time

House is a bloody tip today as a result. Meh 🤷🏻‍♀️

I prefer it here than the housework threads.

@Floisme

I'm very conscious that all the restrictions about what we can say on here mean we tend to take a couple of paragraphs to say something that would only take 3 or 4 words if only we were able to use them. I'm sure that adds to the feeling that you can't post on here unless you have a couple of degrees.

I do find it quite refreshing sometimes when these topics come up on AIBU and posters - whether they agree or not - get straight to the point in a way we don't dare to on here.

Very true. If it wasn't for imposed linguistic restrictions the majority of my content re gender ideology could be condensed down to three words. I'll leave it to you to guess at what those might be!

@WarriorN

"People will describe gender dysphoria and people will describe sexual attraction but what does that mean when you're a kid and you have no context?" - GNC Ben.

What are you going to tell kids?

The whole ideology is gaslighty, abusive and coercive.

I love Ben she is so honest. From her YouTube videos the whole 🚆gender scene in Canada sounds like a dystopian hellscape.

When I was studying, the big issue was how much gendered behaviour was innate and the result of bodily difference and how much was social. We didn't use the term 'socially constructed', just 'socialised' - and there was a general agreement that patriarchy was at the root of many socialised behaviours.

@GoingThruTheMotions

Arabella your posts come across as intelligent and we'll thought through, whether you are an academic or not.

They definitely identify as well thought through, anyway. Thanks, Going.

@OvaHere

It's difficult to be sure what women like Watson and Obama really think because the cost of women not toeing the line is so great and it is mostly women who have this layer of societal, coercive pressure applied to them.

Elon Musk has been critical of gender ideology in a much less respectful way than JK Rowling yet has not faced punishment and 'cancellation' in the same way she has.

He was given a spot hosting SNL at the weekend, the same show and cast members that were so disparaging about Rowling. Not one of the cast members refused to appear in protest or seemingly have a problem with his views on gender. Funny that!

How illuminating that is ! Male white billionaire privilege is real. He falsely accused an innocent man of paedophilia and the court said 'meh whatever it's free speech '. Yet JK is not entitled to an informed opinion.

Good plan 👌. Just identify as a bloke. Insist on male privileges. Join the Freemasons etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and policy may have been challenged and updated. But it was my understanding that whilst the Freemasons will accept a man who is now presenting as a woman especially if they joined as a man, the same courtesy is not extended to a woman who transitions to man.
Same as the legal exception that was made regarding hereditary peers - should an elder daughter transition to male she will still not inherit the title and estate. Male primogeniture rules.

Which one is more sexist:
"woman seen as a collection of characteristics such as: feminine, soft, more empathetic, less logical, more emotional"

OR

"woman seen as a human full of any possible traits and expressions: who has the following physical characteristic: born female"?

I don't identify with either my "gender as a woman" NOR my sex as a female. I am not my just my gender and I am not just my sex.
In fact I would go as far a saying that I feel "just a human" on most days and don't think of myself as "a woman".

BUT I cannot escape my sex. It's the thing that fixes me in this world. I don't like it much. I can see how being confronted with this fact can be traumatic for a young person. But it is the reality of this world.

No one can escape their sex, even trans people. It's ok to be angry about it, but.. you cannot change it by making up a whole system that detaches you from biology.

Personally, I'd actually be happy to give up the word "woman" for grabs, and just stick to talking about females and males, because that is really most clear. But I can also understand that some women just feel it is a matter of principle to stick to the word that we have been described by and discriminated by for ages.

Same as the legal exception that was made regarding hereditary peers - should an elder daughter transition to male she will still not inherit the title and estate. Male primogeniture rules.

And I think if a male heir transitions, he will still inherit. I'm fairly sure that the exception just says that the GRA doesn't apply in the case of hereditary peerages. So such a person could become the first 'female' hereditary peer (even though women can't inherit).

Personally, I'd actually be happy to give up the word "woman" for grabs, and just stick to talking about females and males, because that is really most clear. But I can also understand that some women just feel it is a matter of principle to stick to the word that we have been described by and discriminated by for ages.

Do you think it is useful to have a term that differentiates adult females from juvenile females?

Not to mention the other thread about Stylist opening up a competition to anyone who 'identifies as female'...

Personally, I'd actually be happy to give up the word "woman" for grabs, and just stick to talking about females and males, because that is really most clear. But I can also understand that some women just feel it is a matter of principle to stick to the word that we have been described by and discriminated by for ages.

I also would be very unhappy with this. Female and male describe the sex classes in any species, it is only woman/man, girl/boy that says we are human.

Whenever I think of language changes being pushed through I think of how could the worst people apply this.

Do how could people who want to cause harm benefit from the lack of distinction between a girl and a woman, lumping them together as female...

@EdgeOfACoin

Personally, I'd actually be happy to give up the word "woman" for grabs, and just stick to talking about females and males, because that is really most clear. But I can also understand that some women just feel it is a matter of principle to stick to the word that we have been described by and discriminated by for ages.

Do you think it is useful to have a term that differentiates adult females from juvenile females?

Not to mention the other thread about Stylist opening up a competition to anyone who 'identifies as female'...

You do have a point. I am not sure what I think of it yet. What was the thing about Stylist?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Apparently there are a lot of young radical/gender critical feminists on Tumblr, of all places, I've seen TRAs disparagingly refer to it as "Terfblr"

I have some experience of this and yes, there's a big young - teens/early 20s - radfem/lesbigay/anti-gender identity community on there, who are sharp and angry and who are pushing back, and seizing back the silly "terfs don't interact" memes and tags, by calling themselves things like "opisaterf" and posting "terfs do interact" and so on.

They are great and very funny and knowledgeable, and it's fun to watch them run rings around the altogether less adept young TRAs/anime cat ears types on Tumblr. But It's largely protected, I assume, by the fact that Tumblr is one of the few remaining social media platforms that, like here, uses anonymous usernames so that users have less fear of being doxxed or publicly shamed as on Twitter.

That's the point isn't it GTTM? I don't think I'm cynical. It's a basic " who benefits" analysis.

(Following on from my last post about Tumblr, though I lurk on the young radfem community there, but so often, I want to tell them to come over here and join in with us because they'd like it here! Building bridges between different groups and communities of women who are all pushing back against this stuff seems to me to be really important.)

Ereshgkigalangcleg

Perhaps you should "carefully read" the full thread, Helen.

It got a bit repetitive to be honest (and nothing I haven’t read on here before).

Annoyingly, I wrote a long post this morning responding to various points, and thought I’d posted it, but I can’t see it. Although it also wasn’t anything I haven’t said on here before.

And the absurd naivety of people who seek to dilute our sex based rights and resources. Because you want to feel lovely and liberal and progressive, another woman gets raped in prison. By a man. That you said should be there because this makes you feel lovely liberal and progressive.