Terrified of regressive modern feminism

[TRHR]

By saying "you can't be a woman if you're born without a vagina, and if you're born with a vagina you must be a woman" you're making reproductive organs the defining and most important characteristic of being a woman. This attitude was used to oppress women for centuries. We were baby makers only, and hormonal and chromosomal differences were used to say that we were too "emotional " for public life, education and jobs. Only over the last 100 or so years have our minds and emotions been rightfully recognised as just as important as our vaginas. GC is now going back to seeing our sex organs as our most important identifier and as a feminist and a young woman this really scares me. It is playing right into the traditional patriarchy, is sexist, regressive and oppressive. The fact its being done in the name of 'feminism ' terrifies me. The recent historic implications of insisting women are defined by their bodies scares me. These views are still held by conservative (often religion based) communities and we've all seen how easy it is for these groups to gain power - feminists shouldn't be helping them justify their attitudes or behaviour.

If you've seen/read the Handmaid's Tale you'll know what attitudes I'm afraid of. GCs ironically tell TRAs they are 'handmaids' when actually it is their attitude that has historically led to the oppression that Attwood (who is trans inclusive) bases her books on.

Gender is not a set of stereotypes - it's an identity based on culture, history, society , psychology and often (but not always) sex. It's far more freeing than "vagina = woman" and takes account of each of us as individuals not just bodies, which is what feminism up until now has fought for.
As an example, many trans women don't wear "girly " clothes, they identify as "masculine/butch" lesbians. Many trans men still like wearing make up and dresses e.g. in drag.
Many people would say the world shouldn't be defined as 'male / female' at all. But it always has done, that won't be changed in our lifetime. So seen as that is our social structure, it's oppressive to police how people choose to move through life under this structure based on bodies.
Thanks for reading this far and if I get one extra person to consider the harm that GC is doing, especially to young women of child bearing age, it'll be worth the condescension and vitriol that this post will inevitably receive.

it's oppressive to police how people choose to move through life under this structure based on bodies

I don't care how people choose to move through life. They can dress however they please. However biological sex is a reality, and women are vulnerable because of that. So yeah, dress and present however you want. But removing services that keep women (who cannot identify out of reality) is not on. I think you should think this through a little more.

You actually have this the wrong way round. It is the current ideology which is regressive. Feminists (real ones ) say you can't change your sex (true) but it should not be used as an excuse to limit you by imposing gender norms or discriminating against you. What's regressive about that?

Shall we start a reading list for this confused OP?

Btw, OP it isn't "modern" feminism. It's the only feminism. Feminism is about women, by women, for women. The same feminism as the Suffragettes, the same feminism as the glorious 2nd wave in the 70s and the Women's Liberation Movement, and the same feminism now. All women-centred. All the other bollocks you've had drummed into you, via media and universities, is anti-feminism. It's co-opted, neoliberal, pomo nonsense that is the exact opposite of feminism as it is not women-centred. All the pro-porn activism - all about serving men's dicks. All the 'sex work is work' activism - all about serving men's dicks. All the trans activist 'anyone can be a woman' activism - all about serving men's dicks.

There's more than a hint of misogyny about all this talk of 'GC feminists are being bad by saying only women have vaginas' as if it's a bit distasteful to have a vagina, a bit of an unpleasant organ, maybe a bit dirty.
I find it incredibly offensive tbh. It's very odd, especially when coming from women 🙄

That's a new one on me OP, I'll give you that. A change of tack from the usual "you're all evil bigots" line I suppose. That hasn't shut women up has it, so perhaps "you're all complicit in your own subjugation by saying women are the female sex" might work.

It won't, but 10/10 for trying.

I thought this thread was going to be about the twaw, sex work is work liberal feminists & I was going to agree.
In my opinion it’s these liberal feminists who are reducing women to the sum of our body parts by redefining us as people with cervix’s or people who menstruate not the gc feminists.

You might find this thread really helpful because I think you might have completely misunderstood what you call 'GC' feminists are actually talking about.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

I am glad that you have come to discuss your reservations here (rather than to merely shame women for discussing pro-women rights) and that you are obviously hear to listen to a wide range of opinions.

The calibre of the replies here (most of which tell OP just to shut up) are extraordinary.

Rational debate definitely doesn't happen on this platform. No genuine response or refutation. Just blatant dismissal.

Transphobia rots the brain.

It seems such a twisted view of feminism to me to think our bodies are something private we should shut up about.

Feminism is at least partly about accepting our bodies as positive aspects of ourselves and also thinking and talking about what our female bodies mean. That it is not a meaningless accident that every woman has a vagina and that every woman is expected to have a womb.

99% of all adolescent girls menstruate on a normal timetable, and another group menstruate late. It is an experience that only women have, that nearly all women have and because it probably means we can get pregnant, that is surrounded by rituals and abuse. Pretending that men can menstruate is not liberation of women. Liberation of women is saying that women's bodies and experiences are equally as human as men's, and equally deserving of respect and accommodation.

@yeahbutnaw

The calibre of the replies here (most of which tell OP just to shut up) are extraordinary.

Rational debate definitely doesn't happen on this platform. No genuine response or refutation. Just blatant dismissal.

Transphobia rots the brain.

Have you read the thread? The first couple of replies are along those lines, but the rest aren't. Come back when you've read all the replies abd are qualified to comment.

Rational debate definitely doesn't happen on this platform. No genuine response or refutation. Just blatant dismissal.

I don't think you understand the meaning of rational debate if that's what you think. I'm not surprised tbh, having seen other responses on different threads from you.

Remind me which sex gets paid less than the other?

So seen as that is our social structure, it's oppressive to police how people choose to move through life under this structure based on bodies
But here you are talking about gender not sex. In fact, you have inadvertently taken the GC stance here! I really think you have got this round the wrong way OP. Please read the thread linked above. You will find that GC feminism is not what you think it is.

So many informative replies to a new poster (welcome to Mumsnet btw TRHR )
Any thoughts on the clarifications you've been offered?

especially to young women of child bearing age,

So you do know what a woman is then?

Is there a prize for so spectacularly missing the entire point of gender critical feminism?

"By saying "you can't be a woman if you're born without a vagina, and if you're born with a vagina you must be a woman" you're making reproductive organs the defining and most important characteristic of being a woman."

Well, technically it should be gametes, but yes, that's literally what the word means.

Where you then go immediately wrong is assuming this then means anything else about you, your potential, skills, desires and interests, beyond those directly connected to your physiology. I need regular testing for cervical cancer, not prostate cancer. My symptoms for a heart attack will present differently to a male's. I need clothes that fit in different ways. Anything not related to the physical reality of my female body is whatever I chose to make it.

Many people would say the world shouldn't be defined as 'male / female' at all.

I have never tried to define the term "world" as meaning male/female.
What I presume you're saying is that you don't want to recognise the two mammalian sex classes of male and female. Now, you can want that all you like but it won't make any difference. You cannot identify out of the societal disadvantages that being a woman (of the female variety) brings.

"you can't be a woman if you're born without a vagina, and if you're born with a vagina you must be a woman" you're making reproductive organs the defining and most important characteristic of being a woman. This attitude was used to oppress women for centuries.

Do you believe women were denied the right to vote, have bank accounts, remain working once married or ability to refuse sex with their husbands because of "this atitude" OP?

Women who recognise that sex matters do not make reproductive organs the definitive characteristic, it is being female sex, which is immutable.

@MonkeyNotOrgangrinder You're right, I forgot about your insightful response where you claimed that OP thinks it's distasteful to have a vagina.

Which they didn't say. Many insightful. Very debate.

Modern feminism??!!!

I think you need to read history. Women and girls have been oppressed because of our sex. If you include males in our sex then you then - aside from having no grasp of rational thought - you remove women’s rights and ability to group as a political, economic and social force.

I am not a woman just because of my genitals - funny how you focus on that and know which ones they are likely to be - every single cell and bit of DNA in my body is female from conception.

If you don’t think that matters - tell that to the 40 + million missing baby girls terminated pre-term/killed at birth over the last fifty years internationally because they didn’t have a penis.

What does TRHR stand for? I wonder if there is a little bias here before you've even got started op.🤔

Many people new to the issues have found this useful:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

yeahbutnaw perhaps you would like to engage in a little debate yourself rather than picking other people's posts apart for not being insightful enough for you. Aside from the usual accusations of transphobia, which let's face it, gets pretty dull after a while, do you have anything of substance to say? Something meaningful? Anything at all? ....

OP I honestly think you're only a few Mumsnet threads away from being gender critical yourself, you've just got your logic a bit muddled. Of course no human should be defined by what type of genitalia they possess, but if for a particular reason, such as sport, medical services, personal care etc, one wants to divide humans into the groups male and female (aka men and women) then my vagina and the rest of my female biology is literally the only this that tell me which group I belong in. That is NOT the same as as saying it defines me as a human being. But for the purpose of grouping me into male or female what other possible factor would you consider? What else is true for all women?