Terrified of regressive modern feminism

[TRHR]

By saying "you can't be a woman if you're born without a vagina, and if you're born with a vagina you must be a woman" you're making reproductive organs the defining and most important characteristic of being a woman. This attitude was used to oppress women for centuries. We were baby makers only, and hormonal and chromosomal differences were used to say that we were too "emotional " for public life, education and jobs. Only over the last 100 or so years have our minds and emotions been rightfully recognised as just as important as our vaginas. GC is now going back to seeing our sex organs as our most important identifier and as a feminist and a young woman this really scares me. It is playing right into the traditional patriarchy, is sexist, regressive and oppressive. The fact its being done in the name of 'feminism ' terrifies me. The recent historic implications of insisting women are defined by their bodies scares me. These views are still held by conservative (often religion based) communities and we've all seen how easy it is for these groups to gain power - feminists shouldn't be helping them justify their attitudes or behaviour.

If you've seen/read the Handmaid's Tale you'll know what attitudes I'm afraid of. GCs ironically tell TRAs they are 'handmaids' when actually it is their attitude that has historically led to the oppression that Attwood (who is trans inclusive) bases her books on.

Gender is not a set of stereotypes - it's an identity based on culture, history, society , psychology and often (but not always) sex. It's far more freeing than "vagina = woman" and takes account of each of us as individuals not just bodies, which is what feminism up until now has fought for.
As an example, many trans women don't wear "girly " clothes, they identify as "masculine/butch" lesbians. Many trans men still like wearing make up and dresses e.g. in drag.
Many people would say the world shouldn't be defined as 'male / female' at all. But it always has done, that won't be changed in our lifetime. So seen as that is our social structure, it's oppressive to police how people choose to move through life under this structure based on bodies.
Thanks for reading this far and if I get one extra person to consider the harm that GC is doing, especially to young women of child bearing age, it'll be worth the condescension and vitriol that this post will inevitably receive.

@Faceicle

And the absurd naivety of people who seek to dilute our sex based rights and resources. Because you want to feel lovely and liberal and progressive, another woman gets raped in prison. By a man. That you said should be there because this makes you feel lovely liberal and progressive.

And therein lies the dissonance!

I agree with OP.

Historically, one of the biggest flaws of feminism has been how elitist and non-inclusive it's been (especially in the uk - very racist). Why are we repeating this pattern with transphobia? Surely it's better to have more allies?

I really think that in future, people will be looking back and discussing how transphobic we were as a society in this time.

Personally, I'd actually be happy to give up the word "woman" for grabs, and just stick to talking about females and males, because that is really most clear. But I can also understand that some women just feel it is a matter of principle to stick to the word that we have been described by and discriminated by for ages.
It's not just a point of principle for me. I'm normally fairly pragmatic and, if it was possible to reach a compromise over one word, then I would. But it's not stopping there. Increasingly I see 'female' used on here and I'm having to stop and read the sentence several times before I can unravel the meaning.

I think that what's at stake isn't any individual word, it's the language we use about ourselves and the experiences that unite us. If we lose the language, how are we going to talk - or even think - about it?

Things will get repetitive unless the other side engages.
I'm sure as you've seen the points before you'll have no problems writing up another post. Try pressing preview before you post and copy and paste before you press post if it's particularly long.
I look forward to your views on prisons and crime statistics in particular, along with your understanding of safeguarding.

Although it also wasn’t anything I haven’t said on here before.

If that's the case, I won't be holding my breath for some groundbreaking insight.

It's great to have more posters who agree with OP - welcome! As you raised racism, Chev, maybe you could start with the question that several posters have asked: what is the difference between self-identifying your sex (or indeed "not seeing" sex) and self-identifying (or "not seeing") your race?

Also, please absolutely report transphobic posts!

It's great to have allies. It's less great when allies start laying down their terms for their alliance, such as how you can organise, how and whom you can meet, what you can say.

I'm pleased you brought up race Chev. You see, I know that there are lots of Muslim women in the UK, who, thanks to sex segregation can take part in British life. From being let of the urinary leash to swimming to breastfeeding help.
How does letting natal males into these spaces help Muslim women, who are not all bame but certainly the majority are?

@Chev2021

I agree with OP.

Historically, one of the biggest flaws of feminism has been how elitist and non-inclusive it's been (especially in the uk - very racist). Why are we repeating this pattern with transphobia? Surely it's better to have more allies?

I really think that in future, people will be looking back and discussing how transphobic we were as a society in this time.

I think we’re in danger of looking back and either thinking how did we sleep walk into erasing the use of woman from legislation etc and eroded sex based rights

Or a better version: realised we were going down a dangerous path and relieved we didn’t blindly follow it without thinking about repercussions for women

I have some experience of this and yes, there's a big young - teens/early 20s - radfem/lesbigay/anti-gender identity community on there, who are sharp and angry and who are pushing back

That's very encouraging to hear!

@Chev2021

I agree with OP.

Historically, one of the biggest flaws of feminism has been how elitist and non-inclusive it's been (especially in the uk - very racist). Why are we repeating this pattern with transphobia? Surely it's better to have more allies?

I really think that in future, people will be looking back and discussing how transphobic we were as a society in this time.

So you're saying the biggest flaw in feminism ( the theory and practice of centering women and girls and the fight against oppression from men) is that we haven't included enough male people?

How is it better to have 'allies' who are very clear and explicit in their hatred and dehumanisation of women? As demonstrated by thousands of receipts collected by women over many years.

Personally I think we are more likely to look back in shame at the hideous uptick in extreme misogyny and homophobia and how it was given a free pass due to being framed as progressive.

I'm also keen to hear how Chev thinks this particular brand of "feminism" affects the disproportionately high number of black women in UK prisons, who may find their dignity and safety compromised by a male bodied prisoner.

Chev is confusing feminism with equality.

Historically, one of the biggest flaws of feminism has been how elitist and non-inclusive it's been

Mate, if your feminism requires people to read Judith Butler... it's elitist.

@Faceicle

And the absurd naivety of people who seek to dilute our sex based rights and resources. Because you want to feel lovely and liberal and progressive, another woman gets raped in prison. By a man. That you said should be there because this makes you feel lovely liberal and progressive.

There's a great article somewhere about how "be kind" has become "feel kindly" ie do something, anything, as long as it makes you feel like you did a nice thing.

As you can see, there is a huge need to get beyond the platitudes and feelings and analyse the outcomes of actions. Evidence, accurate data, assess risk.

I'd be interested in that article if you can locate it Cardinal
This is kind of what I was alluding at earlier with Emma Watson. Being kind is generally just showboating without any cost. If Emma was being turned down for roles in favour of transwomen then I could believe she genuinely wanted to be kind, but that's not going to happen. As a pretty well known actress Emma doesn't stand to lose in the same way as say, Serena Williams does. Therefore she can afford to be generous and do empty virtue signalling.

By pretty I mean good looking- the roles she gets are largely based on her fitting the pretty role. And they only fill these roles with a certain type of woman, no matter how loudly they shout twaw.
Older actresses, I imagine, may be passed over in favour of transwomen, as their sexual appeal to heterosexual men is not the driving casting factor.
And I am sure it would be great to have transwomen more represented in movies, but that shouldn't be in roles meant for women who are already massively unrepresented, considering were 50% of the population, you'd expect us to be half the cast of any film...

@TheHeathenOfSuburbia

Historically, one of the biggest flaws of feminism has been how elitist and non-inclusive it's been

Mate, if your feminism requires people to read Judith Butler... it's elitist.

👏👏👏

Two thoughts about being kind:

1. You can be as kind as you want yourself. As soon as you try to force other people to be kind, you've forfeited any claim to kindness. Giving up something that belongs to someone else is not kindness, it is theft.

2. Lying is never kind. It may give you the buzz of making someone feel good, but their pleasure is only pleasure until they encounter the truth and feel correspondingly worse. It may be convenient (politeness often is); it may make them go away and stop bothering you; it may grease social interaction. These are all fine, but they are not kindness. The people we care about deserve the truth, because that is the only possible starting point for making things better.

(Actually @CardinalLolzy said it first and better... oh well.)

@SelfPortraitWithEels

Two thoughts about being kind:

1. You can be as kind as you want yourself. As soon as you try to force other people to be kind, you've forfeited any claim to kindness. Giving up something that belongs to someone else is not kindness, it is theft.

2. Lying is never kind. It may give you the buzz of making someone feel good, but their pleasure is only pleasure until they encounter the truth and feel correspondingly worse. It may be convenient (politeness often is); it may make them go away and stop bothering you; it may grease social interaction. These are all fine, but they are not kindness. The people we care about deserve the truth, because that is the only possible starting point for making things better.

Yes, exactly - how "kind" is it to pretend; where is the boundary between polite white lie (I loved your present! You look great today!) and colluding with a deception which doesn't even do much for the people it pretends to favour?

So often the whole TRA movement seems to be based on "being kind" extending from saying "stunning and brave!" to someone in a wig who clearly doesn't pass; to the idea that we should all collude in a legal and moral fiction (TWAW) that we know to be untrue - that everyone knows to be untrue. And isn't dysphoria worse if you keep coming up against reality, even if everyone around you is pretending just to make you feel better?

OP you talked in one post about making people feel better by allowing them to move through the world as gender rather than body - but what if that just doesn't work? What if that doesn't actually, in the end, make people feel better?

I suspect the research that shows transition doesn't actually decrease dysphoria or adverse mental health outcomes for trans people is pointing towards this - no matter how much pretence goes on, it doesn't remake reality to the degree that wishes become real, and so dysphoria/discomfort never really decreases. Just like it's known that in Body Dysmorphic Disorder, if sufferers try to alleviate it by having cosmetic surgery on their bodies, the disorder doesn't go away, it just shifts to another bodily feature and continues.

Actually, if anyone said to me I had made a brave choice re clothing, hair etc, I'd be inclined to have a long hard look in the mirror and a re-think!

It's usually code for "What a sight!"

I really think that in future, people will be looking back and discussing how transphobic we were as a society in this time

I think people will look back in horror at this war on women tbh. Common sense and understanding the basic rules of safeguarding is not transphobia, no matter how much people love to try and change the meaning of words.

I really think that in future, people will be looking back and discussing how transphobic we were as a society in this time

I really think we'll be looking back and saying how callous, unmerciful and compassionless we were to women affected by this ideology who will have to go to the same jails as transwomen rapists, compete with transwomen in competative kickboxing, rugby, boxing etc.
It's inhumane.

This is a kind of aside, but relevant. There seem to be ‘two’ parallel but opposite ‘new’ and claiming ‘progressive’ ways of thinking not just in sex, gender but in race, disability.

For example, in acting as we are talking about that - it is now seen as not progressive to employ an actor to ‘act’ disabled or to ‘act’ another race. There is a growing recognition that disabled and different race people should be represented as far as possible as themselves, with their own voice, and that no one else should identify for them, even in acting.

The sex / gender debate seems to cut through this. It seems that for example a role for an actress is more ‘progressive’ if it can go to anyone who identifies as a woman, not a biological woman.

So a real push to have some inequalities better identified by those who are actually disabled or actually that race. From years of being denied that voice, which is similar to women’s experiences. Women weren’t even allowed to be actresses and then when they were, they were ‘whores’. Disability wasn’t played by disabled actors. White people played black people on the big screen.

Just musing about these things really...