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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender guidelines for girls schools quietly scrapped by the equalities watchdog

23 replies

stumbledin · 10/05/2021 00:36

he Equality and Human Rights Commission was set to publish guidelines to help schools navigate the fraught debate between biological sex and gender under the 2010 Equality Act.

Teachers across England, Scotland and Wales were expecting them soon, following three years of delays stretching back to 2018. ...

An EHRC spokesman said: "Considering the lack of definitive case law, it has become clear that publishing our guidance may not provide schools with the clarity we hoped.

"This would not be in the best interests of young people, including trans pupils. We have therefore decided not to publish our guidance."

Source www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/09/transgender-guidelines-girls-schools-quietly-scrapped-equalities/

Full text www.facebook.com/womansplaceuk/posts/1402848340069348 (if you aren't on facebook you can still read but keep getting interrupted by join facebook box popping up which you can just click away)

OP posts:
CardinalLolzy · 10/05/2021 00:48

Does this mean that no-one can make a call about whether something is discriminatory or will disadvantage a group or not, until cases are brought to court?
Surely the people who wrote the law must know what that law meant in practice?

Tibtom · 10/05/2021 01:12

It means the law doesn't back up what EHRC want to say.

ValancyRedfern · 10/05/2021 06:13

This is heartening.

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/05/2021 06:58

They keep "dropping them quietly "

All these guidelines end up scrapped before they get to court.

What they don't do however is dial back.om the kess they have made with getting these changes in "ahead of the law"

What happens with the kids that are already being dealt with according to all the advice from lobby groups etc ?

Sophoclesthefox · 10/05/2021 07:08

Interesting. It was kicked into the long grass a while back, wasn’t it, and now it’s just going to stay there.

Well done to those who have held the line on this.

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/05/2021 07:32

What I never understand is, how, there are so many kids in mainstream who shouldn't be but there's not the funding to assess them or parents don't get transport to send them to a suitable school due to cut backs etc kids are reading books that are falling apart. Parents are asked to donate toilet roll or tissues or kitchen roll or old clothes and there's always a pta that has to raise money for basic supplies.

But there's money for new unisex toilets.

R0wantrees · 10/05/2021 07:40

May 2018 Guardian

Schools pulled into row over helping transgender children
As more teens come out as trans, experts clash over how schools should help
(extract)
"Davies-Arai says she took an interest in the subject because as a child she had felt herself to be a boy, and she didn’t think it was a good idea to label children like her as transgender because she believes that in some cases, these feelings resolve naturally by the end of adolescence.

While the Allsorts advice states that “trans pupils or students should have access to the changing room that corresponds to their gender identity” and that in PE lessons, students “should be enabled to participate in the activity which corresponds to their gender identity if this is what they request”, Davies-Arai argues that shared changing rooms present difficulties for some girls. Few teenage girls will be willing to admit that they feel uncomfortable sharing a changing room with a biologically male student, she says.

She points out that the technical guidance on the Equality Act for schools suggests offering students “private changing facilities, such as the staff changing room or another suitable space” – the approach taken at Miles’s school.

Susie Green, CEO of the charity Mermaids, disagrees, saying the debate about single-sex toilets seems “engineered to whip up fear” and is equivalent to “arguing people of colour shouldn’t be allowed to use the same toilets as white people in case they make them dirty”.

Claire Birkenshaw, a transgender former headteacher, says the wide range of different advice creates confusion and conflict. “There needs to be clear statutory guidance for schools that incorporates the views of experts from education, the medical profession, the Equality and Human Rights Commission and trans people,” she says. “Rows about a vulnerable and marginalised group in education are not helpful.”

The EHRC is planning to issue guidance of its own next month, something Birkenshaw welcomes. “Schools want to support the transgender young person, but at the same time they’ll be reflecting on how other children may feel, on how staff are going to feel and parents.” (continues)

Davies-Arai says her broader concern is that by affirming students’ gender identity, schools may be nudging them down a route that can lead to cross-sex hormones and life-changing surgery without enough time to reflect. Teachers, she says, “are essentially being forced to collude in an experimental approach towards children with gender dysphoria”. She adds: “You can support children and accept them, without affirming their belief that their body is ‘wrong’.”

Adele Robinson (not her real name), a head of year at a secondary school, shares Davies-Arai’s worries. The school has had 12 children, all girls, come out as transgender in the past 18 months. The majority, she says, have autism, and some have experienced sexual abuse.

When they come out, she says, they have brought in information sourced from Tumblr blogs and YouTube videos. Although her team does its best to “support every child in a loving, kind and compassionate way”, she feels that staff are too frightened to challenge what she sees as harmful practices: “We have chest binders worn in school, which is horrible. If a child was cutting, they would be straight in with a counsellor. Yet damaging developing breast tissue goes unquestioned. It’s a gross failure in terms of child protection.” (continues)
www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

Terranean · 10/05/2021 08:21

This is reassuring. Not all schools have bought into the trans vibe.

Thank you to the women who have hold the line! As said above Flowers

persistentwoman · 10/05/2021 08:32

It's reassuring yet frustrating. So many terrible trans policies for schools are around - all with incoherent definitions of trans in children, advocating use of puberty blockers and surgery, undermining safeguarding and promoting parental alienation. The EHRC have a legal duty to counter this with ethical, legal, safeguarding child centred advice.
But they can't, because as a captured organisation, the biased position they want to promote is not legal. And they know it.

persistentwoman · 10/05/2021 08:33

This was published yesterday for schools:

sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Boys-and-Girls-and-the-Equality-Act-May-2021-England-and-Wales.pdf

IvyTwines2 · 10/05/2021 08:46

@persistentwoman 'But they can't, because as a captured organisation, the biased position they want to promote is not legal. And they know it.'

And that lawsuits will likely be coming from detransitioners in the future, over schools' 'affirmation' approach. The contrast between that piece in the Guardian from a few years ago vs the dangerous nonsense they publish on this issue now is very striking.

R0wantrees · 10/05/2021 08:51

IvyTwines2 The Guardian piece was in amidst a lot of dangerous and biased nonsense. It was the same then, although some journalists at the paper were able to report with balance.

CardinalLolzy · 10/05/2021 09:04

Susie Green, CEO of the charity Mermaids, disagrees, saying the debate about single-sex toilets seems “engineered to whip up fear” and is equivalent to “arguing people of colour shouldn’t be allowed to use the same toilets as white people in case they make them dirty”.

Susie's racism is absolutely breathtaking. Why does she associate people of colour with dirtiness? Does she genuinely think that it's literally equivalent - that 98% of sexual assaults are carried out by people of colour? Does she think that people can self-id race?

These views are abhorrent. I wish she would be questioned on this rubbish sometimes.

persistentwoman · 10/05/2021 09:06

Agreed IvyTwines2
There is no doubt about the lawsuits. Court cases and new research highlighting the lack of research and attempts to disguise results. The financial consequences for those enabling and treating children with what the High Court called 'experimental medicine' will hopefully be massive. But these poor children will never get their long term health, fertility or their bodies back.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4235821-Puberty-blockers-effects-on-bone-density

R0wantrees · 10/05/2021 09:13

Susie's racism is absolutely breathtaking. Why does she associate people of colour with dirtiness? Does she genuinely think that it's literally equivalent - that 98% of sexual assaults are carried out by people of colour? Does she think that people can self-id race?

These views are abhorrent. I wish she would be questioned on this rubbish sometimes.

They are such abhorent claims and it never ceases to amaze/shock me when white British TRAs make them without being challenged.

BreatheAndFocus · 10/05/2021 09:49

Susie Green is borrowing that argument from the US where the mere hint of segregation has people gushing forth and falling over themselves to comply however ridiculous the comparison. It’s like that other one they use that dehumanises black women (not repeating it on purpose).

They are vile racist people who think they’re so liberal but give themselves away every time they speak. Racist, homophobic and regressive.

Well done that head of year for speaking out. It shocks me that more teachers don’t.

R0wantrees · 10/05/2021 09:56

I have witnessed white British male TRAs also claim equivalence with segregation in South Africa under apartheid.

BreatheAndFocus · 10/05/2021 10:17

Disgusting. The lack of self-awareness might just be part of their character, but I think a lot of them are so obsessed by the ideology that they’re unable to step outside it and make objective judgements about the things they’re saying and whether they’re acceptable.

In fact, the whole ideology with its circular reasoning and its thought-terminating memes, stops any reflection at all so drunk are they on their righteousness.

R0wantrees · 10/05/2021 12:03

There are often a number of inappropriate and disrespectful appropriations.

LazyHorizon · 10/05/2021 12:11

Absolutely no hyperbolic comparison is off-limits. We’ve read the tweets saying women getting breast reconstruction because of cancer mastectomies are less deserving than transwomen who #wontdiewaiting for implants, so the bar is already at floor height.

DdraigGoch · 10/05/2021 12:27

With these remarks, I'd say that the bar is somewhere down in the Channel Tunnel.

R0wantrees · 10/05/2021 12:30

Women Outraged After Academic Compares Breast Cancer Survivors to Male Bodies By Karen Finlay -January 13, 2020
Women Are Human
(extract)
"On January 8, 2020, the Scottish government faced a backlash after Equalities Secretary Shirley-Anne Somerville cited research from Dr Peter Dunne as evidence that women should not be concerned about male bodies in women-only spaces. Dr Dunne’s 2017 academic paper, cited in a Scottish Government consultation, compared male bodies to other “non-normative” people, including women (whom he labels “cisgender” women) who have had breast removal surgery:

It would be unthinkable that general discomfort could prevent a cisgender woman from using segregated showering facilities after she had a double mastectomy. In reality, UK law tolerates a considerable amount of bodily diversity when cisgender and intersex persons use single-gender spaces. Why are trans persons treated differently? … If cisgender and intersex persons can use women-only and men-only services, even when they have non-normative bodies, concerns about bodily diversity do not justify the current legal position under the 2010 Act. (continues)

www.womenarehuman.com/women-outraged-after-academic-compares-breast-cancer-survivors-to-male-bodies/

R0wantrees · 10/05/2021 12:36

If cisgender and intersex persons can use women-only and men-only services, even when they have non-normative bodies, concerns about bodily diversity do not justify the current legal position under the 2010 Act.

I am curious about what Dr Dunne is positioning as the "current legal position" under the Equality Act 2010.

Dunne is Senior Lecturer, University of Bristol Law School
research-information.bris.ac.uk/en/persons/peter-r-dunne

Also at Garden Court Chambers
"He is an expert in the field of gender, sexuality and law. Peter regularly publishes in leading peer-reviewed journals and he has worked with numerous public bodies, including the UK Government and the European Union.
He currently serves as the Senior Sexual Orientation Expert for the European Equality Law Network. From 2019-2020, Peter is engaged in SLSA-funded research (with Dr Maria Moscati) on the voice of transgender children in England and Wales.

Previously, from 2017-2018, Peter completed an EU-funded project (with Dr Marjolein van den Brink) on transgender and intersex non-discrimination rights in Europe. Peter regularly publishes in leading peer-reviewed journals. His forthcoming monograph, Rethinking Legal Gender Recognition: A Human Rights Analysis (Hart 2020) applies human rights principles to the formal acknowledgment of preferred gender.

Peter is Family Law Co-convener for the Society of Legal Scholars and is EU Charter Editor for the European Human Rights Law Review. Peter regularly works with public and professional bodies, and he was an expert witness to the Parliamentary Transgender Equality Inquiry. Prior to entering academia, Peter worked as a Harvard Law Fellow at the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission (NYC). He maintains strong links with civil society groups, such as the Trans Equality Legal Initiative."
www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/barristers/dr-peter-dunne

TELI:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374926-What-influence-does-TELI-have-on-government-public-services-and-charities-policies-Co-founders-include-Jess-Bradley-Tara-Hewitt-and-Michelle-Hudson

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