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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Evidence of NHS Advice?

24 replies

EdinburghFeminist · 06/05/2021 21:03

I’ve read that if you would like a female provider for intimate care that you could end up with a trans woman and be told that they are a woman. Or that you could be on a woman’s ward and that if you objected to a trans woman being on the ward too that you would be told that this is a single sex ward and everyone on it is a woman. My partner works in the NHS and says he hasn’t seen evidence of this in the area he works in. Has anyone got any evidence that what I’m describing is happening that I could send him? Thank you so much for any help in advance!

OP posts:
Biscuitsanddoombar · 06/05/2021 21:41

There’s a thread on here about the actions of Bristol & North Somerset CCG which is about this.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3784009-Are-you-in-Devon-Bristol-North-Somerset-or-South-Gloucestershire-Tell-NHS-your-view-on-trans-guidelines-NOW

Rabidgingercat · 06/05/2021 22:34

EdinburghFeminist - I have evidence of your second example, & happy to send it to you. Will dig it out for you tomorrow. . .

Heidi1982 · 06/05/2021 23:10

www.brightonandhovenews.org/2019/12/09/hospital-apologises-to-rape-victim-for-branding-her-request-for-same-sex-breast-screening-medic-as-transphobic/

This is from Brighton. Note the hospital apologised to Claire Dimyon for publicly branding her a transphobe but still refuses to guarantee same sex clinicians:

However, it is not possible to guarantee to any patient that they will only be treated by a clinician assigned to a specific gender at birth and, as an organisation that prides itself on our commitment to diversity and inclusion, nor would we wish to do so.

verycrossnamechange · 06/05/2021 23:28

I can't produce evidence, but I posted about this a few days ago. My friend was seriously ill in hospital, very vulnerable and scared. A large, aggressive male bodied person was admitted right next to her, escorted by 4 policemen. This individual had smashed up the ambulance and was threatening to smash up the ward. However, they insisted they identified as a woman. The other (female) patients were frightened and upset by this, but their concerns were dismissed because this person had to be admitted to the women's bay.

thepuredrop · 06/05/2021 23:30

Here’s NHS Improvement (for England, I believe) via Beaumont society.
Read Annex B: Accommodation for trans people and gender-variant children.
They are to be accommodated in the wards of their choosing.
How does your partner suggest a health professional responds to a patient’s concerns about sharing a dormitory with a member who is clearly of the opposite sex (remember, the guidance says they only have to declare, not ‘look like’, their gender) when disclosing their trans status is a breach of confidentiality and illegal? We are told to tell patients they are of the same sex. I was advised this in an NHS Trust Induction -Equality workshop.

www.beaumontsociety.org.uk/news/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Delivering_same_sex_accommodation_sep2019.pdf

verycrossnamechange · 06/05/2021 23:30

Presumably you are aware of the new CEO of the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre?

R0wantrees · 06/05/2021 23:35

This article by Anne Harper-Wright is a must read:
medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6

R0wantrees · 06/05/2021 23:36

'Lancaster mum with 'fear of men' locked on hospital ward with transgender patient
A Lancaster mum whose bi-polar disorder left her believing men were conspiring to kill her said she was left terrified when she was locked on a women's psychiatric ward with an 'extremely male-bodied' transgender patient.'

www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/news/lancaster-mum-fear-men-locked-hospital-ward-transgender-patient-653048

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/05/2021 23:39

The NHS has apologised to a woman who was left “embarrassed and distressed” after a nurse with stubble and a deep voice was going to carry out her cervical smear test at hospital.

The woman requested a female NHS nurse to perform the intimate procedure but was dismayed when a staff member with “an obviously male appearance” greeted her.

When the patient pointed out the mistake, the nurse replied: “My gender is not male. I’m a transsexual.”

Continues inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-woman-transgender-nurse-smear-test-114009

R0wantrees · 06/05/2021 23:49

Most Hosptial trusts have their policies available online.

If you are interested you need to look for two parts:
The Single Sex Accommodation policy & the Transgender Policy.

R0wantrees · 07/05/2021 06:23

@verycrossnamechange I'm so sorry that your friend, whilst very ill, was subjected to this. It is, in my opinion, completely inappropriate for NHS and police to fail in the Duty of Care they have to female patients this way.
Would you please consider advising Baroness Emma Nicholson of this event as she has been determindly raising awareness of girls and women's rights to safety, dignity and privacy.
[email protected]

verycrossnamechange · 07/05/2021 07:42

I have sent my friend the email address. Thank you.

AnotherVice · 07/05/2021 08:03

Not evidence but I have witnessed this happening. (Work in healthcare)

EdinburghFeminist · 07/05/2021 08:11

Thank you so much everyone, that’s absolutely amazing, so much useful info.

OP posts:
EdinburghFeminist · 07/05/2021 08:15

@verycrossnamechange

I can't produce evidence, but I posted about this a few days ago. My friend was seriously ill in hospital, very vulnerable and scared. A large, aggressive male bodied person was admitted right next to her, escorted by 4 policemen. This individual had smashed up the ambulance and was threatening to smash up the ward. However, they insisted they identified as a woman. The other (female) patients were frightened and upset by this, but their concerns were dismissed because this person had to be admitted to the women's bay.
That’s awful. I’m so sorry for your friend.
OP posts:
R0wantrees · 07/05/2021 08:16

'Trans healthcare professionals and patient consent'
By Maya Forstater

September 16, 2020
(extract)
"Dr Kamaruddin is one of four GP partners at the East One Practice. GP Partners invest financial capital as co-owners and have large degree of control. They make hiring decisions and decide how things are organised and run. The practice’s patients are amongst the most deprived fifth of the population of England, with a large Bangladeshi muslim population, many speaking English as a second language.

At the age of 53, after being a partner at the practice for 15 years Dr Kamil Kamruddin decided to transition to live as a woman. Dr Kamaruddin recounts announcing the decision to the other three partners and their joint employees during a regular monthly practice meeting,

My colleagues and staff welcomed the news without much surprise. They voiced their support and even gave a round of applause.

When the other partners and staff raised the question of how to explain this to patients Kamruddin said:

I told them that I would tell them myself, I wanted to carry that burden.

In the Newsweek article: Kamaruddin describes the first day coming to work in the new identity of Kamilla “with a big smile and a bright dress”, having had facial surgery, a hair transplant and other non-specified surgery.

Kamaruddin called it “a satisfying experience”. The GP recounts compliments and congratulations and fantastical cases of mistaken identity “One of my colleagues did not recognise me at first, thinking I was a female locum GP. But it was my patients who took me by surprise the most. No one was hostile towards me. Some thought I was the wife of Dr Kamaruddin, me, their doctor, and a lot of them thought that I was a new GP. “

In the end, my staff did not have to field any awkward questions or hand out any leaflets. (continues)

Again and again, across different platforms Dr Kamaruddin discusses female patients, mainly Muslim women, allowing intimate examinations without a chaperone, as a positive experience validating the doctor’s new identity.

After my transition, they even allowed me to perform more intimate examinations that they did not let me to do when I was a male GP.

“Every single one of them refused my offer of a chaperone even when they knew that I am transgender. “

In a feature in Malysian Medics International Kamruddin says “I had a fear that my patients would treat me differently as they might not agree with my new identity due to prejudice and ignorance. … Surprisingly, my patients were adorable; some thought I was a new female locum GP, few male patients were flirting with me, and almost all were happy for me when they got to know I was the same person”.

Again this raises questions:

Is it appropriate for a medical practice to see the role of staff and patients as being to validate a doctor’s gender identity with complements, unquestioning acceptance and a letting down of personal sexual and religious boundaries?
Were these patients really empowered to say ‘no’ if they did not wish to be seen by intimately examined by the doctor — if this view is seen as hostile, prejudiced and ignorant ?
Were these patients really empowered to say they wanted to have chaperone, when the person offering the choice sees it as highly personal to the healthcare worker, and celebrates if the patient decline a chaperone, as a sign of positive affirmation?
Did the surgery consider the fact that “every single one”, amongst a population described as conservative muslim women turned down the offer of a chaperone for intimate examinations as a sign that the measures they have in place free and informed consent might not have been effective? Was this monitored? (continues)
a-question-of-consent.net/2020/09/16/doctors/

R0wantrees · 07/05/2021 12:20

30 September 2019
OP LukewarmCustard wrote,

"The guidance starts out well. '1.2 Guidance statement: Providers of NHS-funded care are expected to have a zero-tolerance approach to mixed-sex accommodation, except where it is in the overall best interest of all patients affected.'

But then there is Annex B, which says 'Trans people should be accommodated according to their presentation: the way they dress, and the name and pronouns they currently use. This may not always accord with the physical sex appearance of the chest or genitalia. It does not depend on their having a gender recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change. It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for instance, that preoperative trans people should not share open shower facilities).' Annex B was apparently written with input from the Government Equalities Office.

NHS accommodation is now mixed sex accommodation with allocations based on pronouns."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3705528-New-NHS-guidance-on-same-sex-accommodation

Witchlight · 07/05/2021 12:31

I think the main problem is that most rational, reasonable and sensible people cannot conceive that this policy would gain traction in the NHS, or with places like rape crisis centres. Therefore conclude that people going on about it are ridiculous and there is nothing to see.

It is these policies that are ridiculous and have been driven by Stonewall and other very biased organisations. All critical thinking has been suspended because of the history of organisations like Stonewall fighting homophobia.

There was a hint in the Op of “this is all an urban myth” (apologies Op if this was not your intention) and people get a wtf moment when they realise it isn’t and they need to re-focus their view.

R0wantrees · 07/05/2021 12:46

It is these policies that are ridiculous and have been driven by Stonewall and other very biased organisations. All critical thinking has been suspended because of the history of organisations like Stonewall fighting homophobia.

The health and social care policies which remove sex-based Safeguarding pre-date Stonewall's involvement.

relevant thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

'Memorandum submitted by Press for Change (CJ&I 391)' from OP thread above:

(extract)
"The Press and the Fanning of the Flames of Prejudice
Reporting of trans people by the Press illustrates that some newspapers are feeding into and catering for a percentage of their readership who are transphobic. PFC hope that making incitement to trans hatred a criminal offence will also assist to make the following report a thing of the past. This irresponsible example of journalism demonstrates the urgent need to further protect trans people. In carrying out her employment Sue had some limited protection but given that a Gender Recognition Certificate is not legally required in order to recognise a change of gender, others in the same position may not have any protection whatsoever.

Example 1: "Exclusive Fright Nurse: Sex-swap carer

A pensioner was horrified when a "strapping" 6ft sex-change carer turned up to bathe her. Frail Kathy Yates, 88 specifically requested a female to assist her at home. Daughter Kathleen, 48 fumed: "When the carer came through the door, I nearly keeled over. "It looked like a man dressed as a woman. Talk about an overdose of make-up! He was 6ft with badly bleached blond hair. "He had shoes that must have been size 11, huge hands - and insisted I call him Sue." The carer said she moved from Cornwall to Blackpool, Lancashire, to start a new life after his op. "I said, 'You won't be showering my mother, sonny boy.'" Blackpool Council said 'Sue' had been a female legally for more than a year. A spokesman added: "It is unlawful for her to be treated in any other way."

Transphobia is very specific and will not be protected by any measure to provide protection on the grounds of sexual orientation alone. In all probability the daughter's transphobia, and what she may or may not have said to her mother, manifested itself as the "incitement to hatred". Transphobia is pervasive within the majority in what became a very public example of incitement to transphobic hatred by its repetition in the press, " (continues)
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmpublic/criminal/memos/ucm39102.htm

EdinburghFeminist · 08/05/2021 18:42

That definitely wasn’t my intention, I am mostly a lurker here but I’m fully on board. My partner however says that he ‘hasn’t seen this kind of thing happening in his hospital’ so I was looking for evidence to convince him.

OP posts:
thepuredrop · 08/05/2021 19:19

@EdinburghFeminist

That definitely wasn’t my intention, I am mostly a lurker here but I’m fully on board. My partner however says that he ‘hasn’t seen this kind of thing happening in his hospital’ so I was looking for evidence to convince him.
It’s not a common, everyday occurrence is why.

But his hospital will have policies which he is expected to refer to. Suggest he reads the equalities and accommodation policies for his Trust, there might even be a separate policy for trans inclusion (but other groups with protected characteristics will not have their own).

thepuredrop · 08/05/2021 19:24

Also this re: Clare Dimyon, who wrote to her breast screening service to request a female mammographer, due to past trauma.
Her letter was later used in the hospital trust’s equality policy as evidence of transphobia, unbeknownst to her. They’ve since apologised.
www.brightonandhovenews.org/2019/12/09/hospital-apologises-to-rape-victim-for-branding-her-request-for-same-sex-breast-screening-medic-as-transphobic/

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