Cultural differences around the age of getting married

[nickymanchester]

I just had a very interesting chat with my DH where he was telling me some of the things that his work colleagues had been telling him about what the expectations of marriage are where they are located.

I just had no idea that there were such differences. Am I naive to not have realised that these attitudes still exist?

By way of background, DH works for a large engineering company that have operations throughout the world and he was talking to some colleagues in the USA (specifically in the southeast US - that is North & South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, Mississippi etc).

One colleague just mentioned that his daughter, who is in the final year of university, had just got married. My DH expressed surprise about that, with her being so young and still studying, but he said that this was quite normal in that part of the world.

Apparently their zoom meeting then got side tracked into a discussion on this and a couple of them said that in the Southeast USA, there still seems to be familial/societal pressure for girls to be married by the time they graduate college.

Another colleague also mentioned that his daughter had got married in the summer before her last year of college as well and since then had attended over 25 weddings of friends in similar situations over the last two years.

Another colleague, who is based in the midwest (places like Nebraska, Kansas etc) said it was a similar situation there with loads of weddings in the first year or two after college.

Perhaps I should have put this in AIBU, but AIBU to be surprised that there is still this sort of pressure or expectation in a western country in the 21st century?

Elsewhere in the US, things are obviously very different (or, at least, I presume they are) as the US Census Bureau says that the median age for first marriage for a woman is 27.9.

The average age for first marriage for a woman in the UK is 32.

Now, obviously, a lot fewer people are actually getting married these days and there is less pressure on people to get married.

However, for there to be a four year difference in age of first marriage between the UK and the US shows that there are some real cultural differences.

It's even more stark when you look at individual states. In many of the states in the southeast and midwest the median age of first marriage for a woman is 25 or 26.

Whereas in places like New York or Washington it is about 30 - a lot closer to the UK figure.

When my DH mentioned this conversation to me I didn't think much about it, but the fact that the age of first marriage in those states is so much lower than in the UK (and other parts of the US) show that, yes, this is actually still a thing in those parts of the US - an expectation that women are to be married off as soon as is reasonable.

Are we (or, at least, some Americans) still living in a world like that?

In England which I know about because I live here. And I'm nearly 50 so have seen some change.

The marrying older thing is like s lot of other social changes a bit of a double edged sword for women.

I know maybe 7 men (well enough to know about their personal lives!) who have

Met someone at uni or at work in their 20s
Got a house together etc maybe got married
Held off children. Not ready. Wrong point in their careers. We both want to travel more etc.
Then when the woman is 32ish. Left her for someone younger and immediately had loads of kids.
Having essentially nicked the woman's chance of having a baby. (Time ticking, meet someone else after getting over the split, get to know him well enough and it's a long term thing, he wants kids too etc etc)

Dick move but happens a lot.

Also from work some men are interested in their kids and hands on etc

But a surprising amount see them as essentially the responsibility of the woman. Lie about working late to avoid bedtime bathtime etc. Are very open about this. Hopeless.

You read on here all the time about men who expect to carry on as usual after kids.

I do think men are in general much more prone to behaving like teenagers into their 40s 50s than they used to be.

@NiceGerbil

Halcyon have a Google. If we're talking UK then certainly things have shifted.

Children are not as independent as they were years ago. The law has changed now to say you're not allowed to leave school at 16 generally:

'England
You can leave school on the last Friday in June if you’ll be 16 by the end of the summer holidays.

You must then do one of the following until you’re 18:

stay in full-time education, for example at a college
start an apprenticeship or traineeship
spend 20 hours or more a week working or volunteering, while in part-time education or training'

Young people esp men seem to stay at home for years. House prices/ comfort/ not being expected to leave-

'Nearly a million more young adults are living with their parents than was the case two decades ago, a study has found.'

And so on etc.

Google it. I thought this was well known tbh.

Yes I know the law wasn't always like this in the UK. But we've not allowed people in their 20s or 30s to marry children of 11/12 like you posted earlier in the thread for a long time now. I'm very shocked that this is still allowed in some part of the US.

@NiceGerbil

Also from work some men are interested in their kids and hands on etc

But a surprising amount see them as essentially the responsibility of the woman. Lie about working late to avoid bedtime bathtime etc. Are very open about this. Hopeless.

You read on here all the time about men who expect to carry on as usual after kids.

I do think men are in general much more prone to behaving like teenagers into their 40s 50s than they used to be.

Ha! I agree from the posts on here that that seems to be the case. But that's only because this is socially accepted by their colleagues/ wive/ friends/ families rather than leading to them being ostracised for such appalling behaviour. Age of marriage and poor behaviour of certain men are certainly not intrinsically linked.

Personally, I think these people have probably got it right in most ways.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/apr/01/the-kingdom-of-women-the-tibetan-tribe-where-a-man-is-never-the-boss

@NiceGerbil

In England which I know about because I live here. And I'm nearly 50 so have seen some change.

The marrying older thing is like s lot of other social changes a bit of a double edged sword for women.

I know maybe 7 men (well enough to know about their personal lives!) who have

Met someone at uni or at work in their 20s
Got a house together etc maybe got married
Held off children. Not ready. Wrong point in their careers. We both want to travel more etc.
Then when the woman is 32ish. Left her for someone younger and immediately had loads of kids.
Having essentially nicked the woman's chance of having a baby. (Time ticking, meet someone else after getting over the split, get to know him well enough and it's a long term thing, he wants kids too etc etc)

Dick move but happens a lot.

That's horrendous.

I'm British now living on the East Coast in the US. I don't know anyone who married particularly young but one cultural difference that I've noticed is that while it's not uncommon to have children with a long-term partner in the UK, I literally don't know anyone who's done that here. I'm guessing legal rights have alot to do with it and as there's so little available benefits-wise (not even child allowance), parents really do need the legal safety net of marriage. It's also far more difficult to avoid paying child maintenance here.

Halcyon I know we're always led to think we're close to the States because we share a language. But our cultures are massively different. And USA is vast and each state has its own laws etc and there are huge differences.

It's the Christian right I think. The ones who have the virginity rings and all sorts of odd ideas. Still yes I was shocked when I read it. A law in one of these states to raise the age was not passed as it would interfere with traditional religious values or something. I mean fucking hell. But then abortion, guns, death penalty etc. They're s totally different culture.

@NiceGerbil

Halcyon I know we're always led to think we're close to the States because we share a language. But our cultures are massively different. And USA is vast and each state has its own laws etc and there are huge differences.

It's the Christian right I think. The ones who have the virginity rings and all sorts of odd ideas. Still yes I was shocked when I read it. A law in one of these states to raise the age was not passed as it would interfere with traditional religious values or something. I mean fucking hell. But then abortion, guns, death penalty etc. They're s totally different culture.

Oh I agree completely. I think the US culture is bizarre and it's so alien to me. Whereas I have family all across Europe and we all have very similar fundamental values and culture, because our cultures have developed together and intermingled for thousands of years. The US uses our language but there's no similarity beyond that, and them copying some of our place names/ cultural institutions/ legal structures - that I can see. Culturally I have no more in common with someone from the US than someone from India.

Religion is the scourge of humanity and it's appalling and astonishing that the legislature in some regions of a country that delusionally casts itself as "the leader of the free world" are able to land morally prepared to uphold legalising child abuse and enslavement.

I got married at 27 to my partner of 7 yrs. We got engaged after 2 yrs when I was 22 and then began saving for a house. Bought a house at 24 and could have (should have) married then. Had 1st dc at 31 then rushed to have another resulting in twins at barely 33! Been permanently knackered since,! Its s a hard one cos peak fertility years and energy for bringing up kids coincides with peak career building years for do many of us. Don't consider myself an older parent by any standard but my 1st pregnancy went badly wrong at 34 wks resulting in emergency cs, time in scbu for dc and several days of illness for me. I do look back & wonder if it might have been different if I'd been 25 not almost 31, Though i went on to have a trouble free 2nd pregnancy with twins so maybe it was just bad luck.
My main regret is being an older grandma. If my dc follow in my footsteps I won't be a grandparent till mid 60s which seems pretty old jn terms if helping out and being a hands on granny. So to me getting married & starting your family before 30 seems a good age both fertility wise and for helping your dc with their kids but its not ideal for everyone. Men have become more infantilied, acting like 18 well into their 30s and women often have to choose career building over babies till they're in late 30s. If I had mt time again (lucky to have a good marriage and we met when young,) I would have got married at 25 and started our family within a year or two!

HalcyonSea thank you for your judgement about my lifestyle. I don't regret my decisions and I don't judge anyone who chose differently. Different strokes, etc.

Gwen I'm reluctant to say evangelical as most people are more familiar with the USA evangelical model which is much more "give me all your money so I can live in a mansion and preach hateful rhetoric" and not at all what the similar named movement is in the UK. I've been to a variety of different churches, my current one isn't affiliated to any larger organisation.

"Otherwise known as legalised paedophilia, parents sanctioning it actually makes it much worse."

Almost makes the parents into pimps, selling their children in return for not having to support them financially any more.

"The marrying older thing is like s lot of other social changes a bit of a double edged sword for women."

Yes, the lack of pressure on men to get married means a lot of women are not able to settle down in enough time to have a family. That can be sad. However, overall, smaller families are better for women and for the planet and something that usually happens when women get more education.

"Gwen I'm reluctant to say evangelical as most people are more familiar with the USA evangelical model which is much more "give me all your money so I can live in a mansion and preach hateful rhetoric" and not at all what the similar named movement is in the UK. I've been to a variety of different churches, my current one isn't affiliated to any larger organisation."

OK, but it's not just 'Christian' is it? I think that's important to point out, though I know that born again Christians often just refer to themselves as Christians.
In CoE churches now, cohabiting has become so accepted that I heard a vicar about 15 years ago saying it was normal for the bride and groom to put the same address down on the register.

I think the other obvious thing is that even if many religious people would like to wait until marriage, they just will not find a partner who wants the same thing, so I always think people who do that probably live in quite separate communities.

"My main regret is being an older grandma. If my dc follow in my footsteps I won't be a grandparent till mid 60s which seems pretty old jn terms if helping out and being a hands on granny."

My dgm was 60 when I was born and it worked really well because she retired around that point. (She was close to 80 when my youngest cousin was born and was more like a great grandmother to her in some ways).

My parents are late sixties, early seventies and not really able to be in sole charge of my dn for very long, so yes, they're too old. Health plays a part too of course.

Most of my friends growing up were religious and married a lot younger than 32. I wouldn't say I'm particularly religious but I married the year after I left university at 22. I think it's just what's seen as normal in your community. Most of my church friends didn't bat an eyelid at my age because it was pretty normal to them. My uni friends were more surprised.

"Where "saving for a wedding" or "not bothering about being married" has become more normalised I don't see that as a good thing at all."

Some of that is to do with the difficulty of buying a house maybe. The big effort goes into saving for a deposit rather than a wedding.

@Mylittlesandwich

Most of my friends growing up were religious and married a lot younger than 32. I wouldn't say I'm particularly religious but I married the year after I left university at 22. I think it's just what's seen as normal in your community. Most of my church friends didn't bat an eyelid at my age because it was pretty normal to them. My uni friends were more surprised.

Which country was this?

@Gwenhwyfar I'm in Scotland

@Gwenhwyfar

"Gwen I'm reluctant to say evangelical as most people are more familiar with the USA evangelical model which is much more "give me all your money so I can live in a mansion and preach hateful rhetoric" and not at all what the similar named movement is in the UK. I've been to a variety of different churches, my current one isn't affiliated to any larger organisation."

OK, but it's not just 'Christian' is it? I think that's important to point out, though I know that born again Christians often just refer to themselves as Christians.
In CoE churches now, cohabiting has become so accepted that I heard a vicar about 15 years ago saying it was normal for the bride and groom to put the same address down on the register.

I think the other obvious thing is that even if many religious people would like to wait until marriage, they just will not find a partner who wants the same thing, so I always think people who do that probably live in quite separate communities.

It's interesting - of all the people I know who got married in a CofE church, none of them were practising Christians. They just attended for the required amount of time, and hey presto, pretty photos.

The average CofE congregation is pretty old now, unlikely to be marrying. I have a good relationship with our local vicar and my kids go to a CofE school, but it's not the church where we choose to go - because there aren't any other young families there.

I'm troubled by the idea of "separate communities". We're just normal people. We live in normal towns, normal houses, have normal (mainly public sector) jobs and shop in normal shops. The only difference between my Christian and non Christian friends is Church attendance. Otherwise we're all just normal people. We're no more a separate community than a group of people who all support the same football team. I don't like the undercurrent of "them and us". It's damaging. We're all just people trying our best to live a good life and help other people.

"The average CofE congregation is pretty old now, unlikely to be marrying"

Yes, same for my denomination, which is why you wouldn't use it as a way of meeting a future spouse so even if you believed in it, finding a person who wants no sex before marriage would be extremely hard, probably impossible.

"The only difference between my Christian and non Christian friends is Church attendance."

Well, no, not really. You said yourself you marry young etc. I also go to church occasionally so that's not the major difference, but none of my friends got married very young.

[quote Mylittlesandwich]@Gwenhwyfar I'm in Scotland[/quote]
Urban? Rural? Denomination?
Scotland's a bit vague.

Apologies you didn't ask for my life history.

I grew up in a large commuting town near Glasgow.
We moved to a more rural town when I was in primary school which is where I met my church friends.
I then moved to Aberdeen for university which is where I met my husband.
I'm back in central Scotland now.

Oh absolutely. The majority of people met elsewhere. Usually uni, or work. In some cases they weren't both Christians at that point. I only know one couple who actually met at the church. I met my husband online as I appreciated the chance of a partner appearing at church was limited. As I say, the actual level of adherence to such beliefs as "saving for marriage" did vary. Some have only ever slept with their husband, but they didn't necessarily wait until they were married to do so. Some have had many sexual partners throughout their youth, some regret it, some don't. Personal choice, isn't it.

In regards to differences, I meant in the way we interact with society as a whole. We're not Brethren who live in a commune and wear different clothing, for example. Some of us marry young. As I say, I was nearer 30 myself. I'd say about 25 was most common. Although if I'd met my husband earlier I'm sure we would have married younger, but we didn't meet until late 20s.

@NiceGerbil

In England which I know about because I live here. And I'm nearly 50 so have seen some change.

The marrying older thing is like s lot of other social changes a bit of a double edged sword for women.

I know maybe 7 men (well enough to know about their personal lives!) who have

Met someone at uni or at work in their 20s
Got a house together etc maybe got married
Held off children. Not ready. Wrong point in their careers. We both want to travel more etc.
Then when the woman is 32ish. Left her for someone younger and immediately had loads of kids.
Having essentially nicked the woman's chance of having a baby. (Time ticking, meet someone else after getting over the split, get to know him well enough and it's a long term thing, he wants kids too etc etc)

Dick move but happens a lot.

Yep. And you see it on here nearly daily. A lot of them future fake (maybe not intentionally) but the woman falls for it, gives all the trappings of marriage - buys a house with the guy, plays wifey to him, wants a child but goes along with his delays as is hopeful/does the pick me dance. VERY common. I always tell them to leave by about age 28.

I was married to one of these (wouldn't buy a house with a boyfriend ever) but divorced him in time.

And yy to more men behaving like teens until their 40s. Again, it's enabled by many women sadly, probably due to social conditioning.