Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Legal gender affirmation improves mental health for trans people

73 replies

Shizuku · 02/05/2021 10:35

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7229467/

"Findings: Legal gender affirmation was significantly associated with lower reports of depression, anxiety, somatization, global psychiatric distress, and upsetting responses to gender-based mistreatment."

OP posts:
PronounssheRa · 02/05/2021 10:40

Hhhmmm not sure you meant to post this in FWR? Unless you forgot to add a question or a point to your post?

As it is, it just reads like your spamming

Shizuku · 02/05/2021 10:46

@PronounssheRa

Hhhmmm not sure you meant to post this in FWR? Unless you forgot to add a question or a point to your post?

As it is, it just reads like your spamming

The legal recognition of trans people is a constant topic of conversation in this forum - as you know.
OP posts:
PronounssheRa · 02/05/2021 10:49

No the conversation on this board is about the impact on women's rights.

Grimbelina · 02/05/2021 10:56

Legal gender affirmation was significantly associated with lower reports of depression, anxiety, somatization, global psychiatric distress, and upsetting responses to gender-based mistreatment."

I, and I am sure many others, would be delighted if a legal process was associated with better mental health.

However, what does this actually mean when there are apparently tens if not hundreds of gender identities? Should they all be legally affirmed? What is the purpose of legal affirmation? What if you keep changing gender? Would you need to go through some legal process each time you decided you wanted to change gender? So many questions...

Moreover, as a PP says, this has nothing to do with women's rights.

Grimbelina · 02/05/2021 10:57

I should have said women's sex based* rights.

CandyLeBonBon · 02/05/2021 11:00

Oh it's you again!

Deliriumoftheendless · 02/05/2021 11:18

How doR’s one get surgery to be that paw print one?

Asking for a friend.

Doyoumind · 02/05/2021 11:23

Relevance to feminism?

Shizuku · 02/05/2021 11:32

@Doyoumind

Relevance to feminism?
You must be new to this forum - there are multiple posts about trans people and legal gender recognition.
OP posts:
Shizuku · 02/05/2021 11:33

@PronounssheRa

No the conversation on this board is about the impact on women's rights.
The impression I get is that quite a few people here think that legal recognition of trans people's identities does impact women's rights.
OP posts:
Doyoumind · 02/05/2021 11:36

I've been here for years, Shiz. The mental health of trans people is not a feminist issue, however you try and dress it up.

GreyhoundG1rl · 02/05/2021 11:37

@CandyLeBonBon

Oh it's you again!
Isn't it always? 😂
CorvusPurpureus · 02/05/2021 11:43

Looks like a funny thing happened on the way to the wrong forum?

OP posts:
Doyoumind · 02/05/2021 11:56

Threads that are started in good faith to discuss the matter from a feminist perspective, often in relation to females who are transitioning or detransitioning are not the same as threads started in bad faith with no feminist perspective.

sanluca · 02/05/2021 12:09

I would like the government to stop registering gender identities and keep to just registering someone's biological sex. Then anyone can gender affirm away, and women can just keep their right to exclude male people. Win win I say.

PronounssheRa · 02/05/2021 12:17

@sanluca

I would like the government to stop registering gender identities and keep to just registering someone's biological sex. Then anyone can gender affirm away, and women can just keep their right to exclude male people. Win win I say.
Absolutely. There is no need to record gender on any documents or records. Recording sex is essential for some purposes though.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/05/2021 12:21

So you would remove these posts too:

There's an AIBU thread there for starters. AIBU isn't a feminist board.

EndoplasmicReticulum · 02/05/2021 12:25

I was going to engage in good faith and talk about the limitations of the study but then I thought I'd go and clean the bathroom instead. Probably a better use of my time.

Thecatonthemat · 02/05/2021 12:31

Well it doesn’t lead to better mental health for me or other women.

GCAcademic · 02/05/2021 12:35

So are we just supposed to do whatever individuals with mental health problems demand we do, regardless of our own needs and rights?

Signalbox · 02/05/2021 12:58

Two non-mutually-exclusive study samples were created from the original 600 participants, one for assessing the relationship between gender marker changes and mental health outcomes and a second for assessing the relationship between name changes and mental health outcomes. A total of 97 participants indicated that they did not want to change their gender marker on their passport nor driver's license were excluded from the analysis examining the association between gender marker change and mental health, resulting in an analytic sample of 503 participants. A total of 125 who indicated that they did not want to change their name on their passport or driver's license were excluded from the analysis examining the association between name change and mental health, resulting in a second analytic sample of 475 participants

Out of interest why did they exclude all the people who did not want to change their gender markers or names on their passport/driver license? Presumably including these people would have given a very different result.

Barracker · 02/05/2021 13:31

Legal recognition of the opposite of the truth. It doesn't work. At best, the law can recognise that a person holds a religious, unsubstantiated belief. But it must not confuse and conflate that belief with another group's actual physically recognisable status. Recognise a belief? Perhaps. But it can only be called by a word NOT already in use or used to define someone else's material existence.

For example, if a devout, practicing Christian declared themselves an atheist, then demanded that the definition of atheism be changed to include an active and zealous belief in God, requiring regular devoted worship, and an affirmation that atheism should affirm that God is real and loves us all? Perhaps with a side order of 'atheists who continue to profess that there is no God are not inclusive of God-worshipping atheists and are now guilty of hate speech because the definition of atheism has evolved to be inclusive of faithful believers. Devout, god-fearing atheists are REAL ATHEISTS.'

That's a no, isn't it? You can adopt any belief, however unsubstantiated, but you cannot misappropriate a meaningful word that already has a material meaning which excludes you, by definition. You cannot take a word which already applies to other people, and not to you, and demand that this word's meaning be changed to mean the opposite, for your benefit. You cannot do that, and then actively prevent the group of people this word previously described from distinguishing themselves from you.

Frankly put, you cannot force a square peg into a round hole. And if you chisel out extra corners to that hole to make it fit square pegs, you've simply created a square hole. It's not round any more, and nor is the square peg it was chiselled to fit. No amount of forcing people to 'recognise' obviously square holes and obviously square pegs as 'a different type of circle' works.

"It's still round, it's just round with corners and has been expanded to be welcoming and inclusive of square pegs. It's still a round hole, but with four sharp corners. All pegs that fit through this altered hole are round. Even square pegs. Which you must now recognise as round. Because they fit through the altered hole. Which is round. Round things can have corners now. Educate yourself."

Female/ woman is not a gender, it's a sex.
Women are round pegs. The word woman is the round hole through which we fit. And the law uses these words, these holes through which some fit and some don't, to ensure it caters properly to round pegs.

Because historically, and still currently, the law catered to only the square pegs. If you were a round peg, you couldn't vote. If you are round, you'll be paid less, you'll have to put up with being underrepresented, you'll be imprisoned for controlling that round peg of a body of yours in ways we don't want.

Men can try to chisel out extra corners to that hole, to that word woman, so that they can force an awkward fit through it. But it simply creates a square hole. It makes all the holes square.

And we can all still see the difference between square pegs and round pegs. And we can see that what was once a round hole has been chiselled into a square too. We will always know the truth.
There is no point in these laws that force everyone to pretend and lie and 'recognise' what isn't true. It takes a hell of a lot of chiselling and renaming reality, a hell of a lot of forcing square and round pegs through the same hole, compelling them to pretend they both fit it perfectly with no differences. And STILL people know.

There is no point to forcing any of this. Forcing people to pretend to recognise what isn't recognisable.

The sexes exist, and we are physically different. This cannot be changed. We cannot 'recognise' square pegs as round, and we cannot redefine round to encompass square. We can try, but people will resist, reality will prevail, and the effort will always fail.

Because we will always be different and THAT is what will always be recognised.

GreyhoundG1rl · 02/05/2021 13:35

Bravo. 👏👏👏 as always Barracker

Beeeeeeeeeeeeeep · 02/05/2021 13:40

Lots of things that are overall bad for people or bad for society in general can have the effect of temporarily alleviating mental health distress in individuals. That doesn't make them good ideas.