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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Legal gender affirmation improves mental health for trans people

73 replies

Shizuku · 02/05/2021 10:35

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7229467/

"Findings: Legal gender affirmation was significantly associated with lower reports of depression, anxiety, somatization, global psychiatric distress, and upsetting responses to gender-based mistreatment."

OP posts:
AfternoonToffee · 02/05/2021 13:41

I have no doubts that for a particular cohort of people [in the US] that affirmation is the correct way forward. However this should not be applied without question in the UK with the current, very different cohort.

littleredberries · 02/05/2021 13:49

So the whole of society has to play make-believe because a few people aren't happy to gender bend and their dysphoria has become something which we now actually have to celebrate?
Hoop jumping is not the end of the world. It protects women and children. It's selfish not to consider that for the sake of your own personal make-believe.

Thecatonthemat · 02/05/2021 13:58

Yes Barracker i wish I could be so clear and not just angry and depressed most of the time..

OhHolyJesus · 02/05/2021 14:08

I love how your brain works Barracker. 😍

Datun · 02/05/2021 14:13

Barracker

Brilliant post. As ever. The image of 'chiselling' especially resonates.

Tibtom · 02/05/2021 14:31

It does not show legal gender affirmation improves mental health in trans people. At best it shows people the mental health of trans people who wanted to and them changed the sex marker on either their driving license or their passport had better mental health. It cannot show causation.

Tibtom · 02/05/2021 14:33

Try again - it shows trans people with better mental health changed the sex marker on either their driving license or their passport.

Tibtom · 02/05/2021 14:41

Interestingly the definition of 'Gender based mistreatment' is "within the past 30 days, have you felt emotionally upset as a result of how you were treatment based on yoir gender"

How many women could answer 'no' to that?

GreyhoundG1rl · 02/05/2021 14:45

@Tibtom

Interestingly the definition of 'Gender based mistreatment' is "within the past 30 days, have you felt emotionally upset as a result of how you were treatment based on yoir gender"

How many women could answer 'no' to that?

Logically though, that could encompass a transwoman upset at being treated as a second class citizen because they've been treated as a woman. But that's not what they're fishing for here, I suppose.
MummBraTheEverLeaking · 02/05/2021 14:46

Great post @Barracker.

Reading between the lines on the OP: I've found a thing that says affirmation is so great, so let me wave it in your face, nur nur nur nurr you big bunch of meanies.

No shit sherlock, having whatever you believe affirmed by others does tend to make you feel good - and feeling good can only be a positive thing for your mental health. What a revelation, I know.

MumUndone · 02/05/2021 15:23

I don't have an issue with legal gender affirmation so long as we continue to recognise that someone's who's 'gender' in terms of the societal construct with which they identify is not always the same as their biological sex and that the latter is still recorded too.

Defaultname · 02/05/2021 15:37

I know that drinking three bottles of wine a day makes people wittier, more articulate, insightful, and has a load of other positive effects including a lesser sensitivity to pain.

I should perhaps mention that these are subjective results confirmed by the imbibers.

I'm told that bullying and humiliating other human beings can increase one's sense of self-worth, too.

Maybe some sort of religion could be built up around that. Or perhaps a cult?

Zinco · 02/05/2021 15:38

Where there is a conflict with women's rights or protection (say trans-women in female prisons), should we care much if there are mental health benefits to trans-people?

It's quite possible:

(1) Trans-women would be happier if legally recognized as women, and placed in female prisons.

And:

(2) Such a policy is actually very stupid in the real world, regardless of whether it benefits a few people.

allmywhat · 02/05/2021 15:40

I think this study lumped together people who are planning to change their names on their documents but haven't got round to it yet, with people who are 'unable' to do it (because the law doesn't let them?)

I think they just found that people who

  • transitioned less recently (potentially less influenced by the recent trendiness of trans identities, also more likely to be classic early transitioners than AGPs)
  • and don't procrastinate on tasks
  • and are competent at dealing with bureaucracy

have better mental health.

Overall, this is not very surprising.

allmywhat · 02/05/2021 15:46

I think that ANY situation where you compare the mental health of Group A and Group B,

where Group A consists of people who would like to do X one day but haven't done it yet even though nothing is stopping them,

and Group B consists of people who've already done X,

will probably find that Group B has substantially better mental health.

unwashedanddazed · 02/05/2021 15:50

Barracker brilliant as always. Thank you.

MissBarbary · 02/05/2021 15:51

@PronounssheRa

Hhhmmm not sure you meant to post this in FWR? Unless you forgot to add a question or a point to your post?

As it is, it just reads like your spamming

Oh come off it. This and the subsequent wide eyed posts about this thread being nothing to do with feminism/ FWR are beyond disingenuous.

Particularly given I assume Shizaku was posting as a counter to this thread saying the opposite.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4234018-Gender-affirmation-ruins-mental-health-leads-to-the-pain-of-transition-regret-which-haunts-people

lazylinguist · 02/05/2021 15:51

Amazing post, Barracker, beautifully articulated. Copied and emailed it to myself to keep for posterity.

MissBarbary · 02/05/2021 15:52

@Tibtom

Interestingly the definition of 'Gender based mistreatment' is "within the past 30 days, have you felt emotionally upset as a result of how you were treatment based on yoir gender"

How many women could answer 'no' to that?

I can answer No - easily.
Leafstamp · 02/05/2021 15:57

@Shizuku

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7229467/

"Findings: Legal gender affirmation was significantly associated with lower reports of depression, anxiety, somatization, global psychiatric distress, and upsetting responses to gender-based mistreatment."

Study also states:

The findings of this study should be understood in light of its limitations. First, our sample is unlikely representative of all trans populations in the US given that we recruited trans people from more socially-liberal states such as MA and RI who may differ from trans people living in other areas of the country. Moreover, our findings cannot be generalized to the wider trans populations given the majority of our sample is composed of white trans respondents, who may experience the legal/policy systems differently from trans people of color.

So not only not representative in the US but definitely not representative in the UK.

Leafstamp · 02/05/2021 15:59

@Barracker

Legal recognition of the opposite of the truth. It doesn't work. At best, the law can recognise that a person holds a religious, unsubstantiated belief. But it must not confuse and conflate that belief with another group's actual physically recognisable status. Recognise a belief? Perhaps. But it can only be called by a word NOT already in use or used to define someone else's material existence.

For example, if a devout, practicing Christian declared themselves an atheist, then demanded that the definition of atheism be changed to include an active and zealous belief in God, requiring regular devoted worship, and an affirmation that atheism should affirm that God is real and loves us all? Perhaps with a side order of 'atheists who continue to profess that there is no God are not inclusive of God-worshipping atheists and are now guilty of hate speech because the definition of atheism has evolved to be inclusive of faithful believers. Devout, god-fearing atheists are REAL ATHEISTS.'

That's a no, isn't it? You can adopt any belief, however unsubstantiated, but you cannot misappropriate a meaningful word that already has a material meaning which excludes you, by definition. You cannot take a word which already applies to other people, and not to you, and demand that this word's meaning be changed to mean the opposite, for your benefit. You cannot do that, and then actively prevent the group of people this word previously described from distinguishing themselves from you.

Frankly put, you cannot force a square peg into a round hole. And if you chisel out extra corners to that hole to make it fit square pegs, you've simply created a square hole. It's not round any more, and nor is the square peg it was chiselled to fit. No amount of forcing people to 'recognise' obviously square holes and obviously square pegs as 'a different type of circle' works.

"It's still round, it's just round with corners and has been expanded to be welcoming and inclusive of square pegs. It's still a round hole, but with four sharp corners. All pegs that fit through this altered hole are round. Even square pegs. Which you must now recognise as round. Because they fit through the altered hole. Which is round. Round things can have corners now. Educate yourself."

Female/ woman is not a gender, it's a sex.
Women are round pegs. The word woman is the round hole through which we fit. And the law uses these words, these holes through which some fit and some don't, to ensure it caters properly to round pegs.

Because historically, and still currently, the law catered to only the square pegs. If you were a round peg, you couldn't vote. If you are round, you'll be paid less, you'll have to put up with being underrepresented, you'll be imprisoned for controlling that round peg of a body of yours in ways we don't want.

Men can try to chisel out extra corners to that hole, to that word woman, so that they can force an awkward fit through it. But it simply creates a square hole. It makes all the holes square.

And we can all still see the difference between square pegs and round pegs. And we can see that what was once a round hole has been chiselled into a square too. We will always know the truth.
There is no point in these laws that force everyone to pretend and lie and 'recognise' what isn't true. It takes a hell of a lot of chiselling and renaming reality, a hell of a lot of forcing square and round pegs through the same hole, compelling them to pretend they both fit it perfectly with no differences. And STILL people know.

There is no point to forcing any of this. Forcing people to pretend to recognise what isn't recognisable.

The sexes exist, and we are physically different. This cannot be changed. We cannot 'recognise' square pegs as round, and we cannot redefine round to encompass square. We can try, but people will resist, reality will prevail, and the effort will always fail.

Because we will always be different and THAT is what will always be recognised.

Brilliant post. I’ve also saved away to keep as reference.

Thanks to the OP for giving Barracker the opportunity to post this.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/05/2021 16:01
  • Oh come off it. This and the subsequent wide eyed posts about this thread being nothing to do with feminism/ FWR are beyond disingenuous.

Particularly given I assume Shizaku was posting as a counter to this thread saying the opposite.*

I'd tend to agree the protests are disingenuous but the time stamps of the OPs of the two threads indicates you're wrong in your assumption of who might be countering whom.

BlaBlaSmthSmth · 02/05/2021 16:10

Not being funny OP but so what? Not everything is about making transgender people feel better, personally I'm more concerned with the privacy and safety of women and girls. Not to mention the fairness to female athletes.

Maybe transgender people can find some other ways to ease their mental health issues.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 02/05/2021 16:12

@OhHolyJesus

I love how your brain works Barracker. 😍
Its a thing of beauty isnt it
R0wantrees · 02/05/2021 16:53

@Barracker

Legal recognition of the opposite of the truth. It doesn't work. At best, the law can recognise that a person holds a religious, unsubstantiated belief. But it must not confuse and conflate that belief with another group's actual physically recognisable status. Recognise a belief? Perhaps. But it can only be called by a word NOT already in use or used to define someone else's material existence.

For example, if a devout, practicing Christian declared themselves an atheist, then demanded that the definition of atheism be changed to include an active and zealous belief in God, requiring regular devoted worship, and an affirmation that atheism should affirm that God is real and loves us all? Perhaps with a side order of 'atheists who continue to profess that there is no God are not inclusive of God-worshipping atheists and are now guilty of hate speech because the definition of atheism has evolved to be inclusive of faithful believers. Devout, god-fearing atheists are REAL ATHEISTS.'

That's a no, isn't it? You can adopt any belief, however unsubstantiated, but you cannot misappropriate a meaningful word that already has a material meaning which excludes you, by definition. You cannot take a word which already applies to other people, and not to you, and demand that this word's meaning be changed to mean the opposite, for your benefit. You cannot do that, and then actively prevent the group of people this word previously described from distinguishing themselves from you.

Frankly put, you cannot force a square peg into a round hole. And if you chisel out extra corners to that hole to make it fit square pegs, you've simply created a square hole. It's not round any more, and nor is the square peg it was chiselled to fit. No amount of forcing people to 'recognise' obviously square holes and obviously square pegs as 'a different type of circle' works.

"It's still round, it's just round with corners and has been expanded to be welcoming and inclusive of square pegs. It's still a round hole, but with four sharp corners. All pegs that fit through this altered hole are round. Even square pegs. Which you must now recognise as round. Because they fit through the altered hole. Which is round. Round things can have corners now. Educate yourself."

Female/ woman is not a gender, it's a sex.
Women are round pegs. The word woman is the round hole through which we fit. And the law uses these words, these holes through which some fit and some don't, to ensure it caters properly to round pegs.

Because historically, and still currently, the law catered to only the square pegs. If you were a round peg, you couldn't vote. If you are round, you'll be paid less, you'll have to put up with being underrepresented, you'll be imprisoned for controlling that round peg of a body of yours in ways we don't want.

Men can try to chisel out extra corners to that hole, to that word woman, so that they can force an awkward fit through it. But it simply creates a square hole. It makes all the holes square.

And we can all still see the difference between square pegs and round pegs. And we can see that what was once a round hole has been chiselled into a square too. We will always know the truth.
There is no point in these laws that force everyone to pretend and lie and 'recognise' what isn't true. It takes a hell of a lot of chiselling and renaming reality, a hell of a lot of forcing square and round pegs through the same hole, compelling them to pretend they both fit it perfectly with no differences. And STILL people know.

There is no point to forcing any of this. Forcing people to pretend to recognise what isn't recognisable.

The sexes exist, and we are physically different. This cannot be changed. We cannot 'recognise' square pegs as round, and we cannot redefine round to encompass square. We can try, but people will resist, reality will prevail, and the effort will always fail.

Because we will always be different and THAT is what will always be recognised.

Brava! Wine
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