Can I ask a question about maya Forstater, please?

[rabbitwoman]

I was chatting to a pal about this. She said she'd been reading up about the case, but thought the things maya had said on twitter were unhelpful and childish - calling a trans woman a bloke in a dress being one. She said her tweets were quoted in an article in the independent, or the guardian or something but I can't find it and I can't find any evidence of the tweets maya made that led up to her sacking having anything like this in them.

I did not really follow the case at the time but recently, I have listened to her interviews with Zuby and Benjamin Boyce and she sounds really professional, intelligent and she does not sound like she would throw about childish insults. But my friend is adament, and adament that her behaviour was foolish, not well thought out and that possibly her behaviour led to the judgement?

I am assuming that the stuff written about her for mass consumption was scewed somewhat to serve a certain agenda (much like jkr was misrepresented) ? Was she grossly misrepresented in the press (and was it deliberate) - or does my pal have a point?

web.archive.org/web/20210423064507/www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/amfightingfor-therightto-saymen-cannever-bewomen/

I was told Maya sensibly archived it.

@rabbitwoman ^ it might be a good media article for your friend to read, with accurate facts and a timeline.

And then she can work out who's being childish.

Thanks for all your replies and..... Sheesh.... It's awful. It seems like such an uphill battle.

I am a bit of an old bag myself. Happy, confident and comfortable, I have done in my life most things I have wanted to - my sporting career is over (although I still train - kickboxing), I really don't care about trans women in loos or changing rooms (a trans woman paramedic did an ECG on me a few months ago, she was lovely), I don't have kids so none of this is really for myself. It's for the young women who have yet to go into the world of work, parenthood, politics, sport..... and all the young people I know think I am a dinosaur who doesn't understand how the world has moved on....

Part of me thinks, okay then, let it happen. It won't really effect me, so bring it on, let's see what happens when we stop fighting, campaigning, speaking out, risking our reputations and friendships and livelihoods, lets see what happens when you are no longer allowed to call yourself a female or talk about your body or protect yourself from discrimination..... In ten years time we can all get tee shirts printed saying 'I told you so.....'

Thanks to Maya for keeping up the fight, not just for yourself but for all of us.

But for me what this clearly shows is that the media for whatever reason, has long ago blurred the lines between reporting and commentating.

But what is really noticeable is that everytime a paper of news site reports in a fairly factual way something that could be said to be gender critical, they go out of their way to print / post an item that is the person comments of a TRA.

And this seems to be getting more aggessive. Not sure if this is because of what is happening in the US, but Yahoo news has lately gone out of its way to publish articles that are consistently along the lines of gender critical feminists are committing acts of violence against trans women. (This came up on another thread but cant quite remember which one - there are so many )

And I did put in a formal complaint against the i newspaper where alongside a factual report they post an opinion piece basically saying science was wrong. And the way it was laid out it made it appear both were news reports.

My complaint was rejected.

Another thing that is happening (eg BBC) is posting fewer and fewer items on facebook. This is signifigant because facebook now far outreachs every other social media platform. And I think that this is because they get much more push back on there. Tweeting is easy rabble rousing stuff. (Twitter by the way in now something like only 15th in ranking of users, but of course has the reputation for gotcha moments. And in fact basically acts as a source for MSM - but only of course those that fit their agenda.

@rabbitwoman

Thanks for the link to the judgement.

The tweets about pip bunce are on page 7 - it seems to be different to what my pal thinks she's read elsewhere - maybe subtly so, but I think it's an important subtle difference. It seems maya was - bluntly - stating facts about bunce's cross dressing, and Bunce is not a trans woman.

So maya never called any trans woman a 'bloke in a dress'? And yet there was a mainstream article that says she did?

I think your friend is confusing Maya Forstater with Kate Scottow, I think Kate may have made similar comments but I can't remember what she actually said. She was arrested but later cleared of any wrongdoing.

The Independent article is not by a journalist

Robin White self-described, "trans pioneer in the legal profession"

Molly Mulready is closely involved with Jolyon Maugham/Good Law Project's 'Trans Defence Fund' and was asked to set up its advisory group. This is primarily concerned with seeking to overturn the Judicial Review findings of Bell Vs Tavistock NHS. She has a teenage child who is identified as 'transgender'

These articles by journalists are better quality:
thecritic.co.uk/what-is-the-case-against-maya-forstater/

Joshua Rozenberg QC (hon) is Britain's most experienced full-time legal commentator.
He is the only journalist to have been appointed as Queen's Counsel honoris causa. All other honorary silks since the late 19th century have been practitioners or legal academics.
He is an honorary Master of the Bench (bencher) of Gray's Inn and a non-executive board member of the Law Commission."
www.rozenberg.net/

Jo Bartosch
thecritic.co.uk/is-a-victory-for-freedom-of-speech-in-sight/

There is analysis of some of the many flaws in the Independent opinion piece:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4230369-Maya-Forstater-is-entitled-to-her-views-but-anti-transgender-beliefs-don-t-belong-in-the-workplace

Thank you Maya, for everything you are doing.

So maya never called any trans woman a 'bloke in a dress'? And yet there was a mainstream article that says she did?

There's a great deal of poor reporting/misrepresentation of this in mainstream articles, especially in those associated with left/liberal readership.
Many women who have become aware of these issues found themselves switching newspapers etc once they were aware of the extreme bias against women's sex based rights and Safeguarding.

I think your friend is confusing Maya Forstater with Kate Scottow, I think Kate may have made similar comments but I can't remember what she actually said. She was arrested but later cleared of any wrongdoing.

Detailed breakdown of why Kate Scottow's appeal was successful:

Object!
'Kate Scottow’s appeal – why did she win?'
15th February 2021

concludes:
No one involved in the case against Kate Scottow did their job properly. There were multiple failings by the police, prosecution and the District Judge. OBJECT has put in a Freedom of Information Request to find out what (if any) training, policies and procedures the police have on the subject of how to treat breast-feeding mothers in custody. We are being sent from pillar to post.

Kate Scottow, although now vindicated on appeal, still has Post-traumatic Stress Disorder and has lost that all-important first job after getting a degree because of the criminal conviction she wrongly and temporarily had, for a case which should never have been brought in the first place.

Had Kate Scottow, despite being traumatised, depressed and having care of two young children, not found the courage to appeal against this heavily flawed judgment, the freedom of speech of thousands of rational, law-abiding gender-critical feminists would have been lost. We thank Kate for her brave stance. There are no words to thank her enough."

objectnow.org/kate-scottows-appeal-why-did-she-win/

@NecessaryScene1

The Independent article is not by a journalist

Oh, right, that article. I hadn't registered what we were talking about. Masterful understatement there.

No, the author of that is an extremely personally-motivated transactivist who is involved in other legal cases on the opposing side.

They are far from a neutral reporter.

So it would be utterly unfair to weight that piece any more than a pro-Maya piece. Or, Maya herself. (Points up)

Hey, Maya!

I don't mind the Independent posting a campaigner's piece on the case. I'm all in favour of their views getting visibility.

What I mind is they have yet to post something from a campaigner on our side. It's unbalanced.

'Extremely peronally-motivated transactivist' here.

That did have me rolling around with laughter. Does that just mean that I dont lay down at the feet of Gender Critical unpleasantness?

I am a member of no campaigning trans organisation and have appeared bringing: e.g., (Taylor) and defending: e.g., (A v Telford) trans cases in (to date) exactly equal measure.

I DO have a belief that we should all try to find a way to get on sensibly and if I had a tattoo it would be 'a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim'.

The fact that the majority gender-critical world wish to mis-read the Forstater case in one direction and many trans commentators mis-read it in the other is, professionally, hilarious.

But you could read what I think in my text on trans law, co-written with another member of my chambers, due out in just over a fortnight now.

Just google 'A practical guide to transgender law' from Law Brief Publishing. And it has a whole chapter on gender critical views. You might be surprised by what we have written.

(Yep - a shameless book plug.)

But you could read what I think in my text on trans law, co-written with another member of my chambers, due out in just over a fortnight now.

Just google 'A practical guide to transgender law' from Law Brief Publishing. And it has a whole chapter on gender critical views. You might be surprised by what we have written.

(Yep - a shameless book plug.)

Its curious if not yet published that the bio at end of Independent opinion piece describes this as, "the leading text on transgender law"

archive.vn/mrYc0#selection-1187.130-1193.31

Leading as in question rather than importance perhaps? I look forward to the claims being reviewed once published.

Absolutely thanks to Kate for pursuing what is right, at no doubt considerable emotional and financial cost to herself.

I look forward to the claims being reviewed once published

Indeed.

I DO have a belief that we should all try to find a way to get on sensibly and if I had a tattoo it would be 'a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim'.

RobinMoiraWhite wrote (May 2019),
"I have respectful debates about difficult discrimination concepts and the clash of protected rights virtually every working day. But it won’t be respectful if, when speaking or writing about me, you call me, as a trans woman, ‘he’ or deny my right to use the facilities society has decided I should have, such as my right to use the bathroom of my affirmed gender should I visit premises under your control?

How would that be different to the position adopted by a certain regime in Germany in the 1930’s that black athletes were held to be sub-human and should not be competing against white athletes?" (continues)
It is when you cross the line in imposing your personal beliefs on others who have a legitimate position in our society that you lose the standing to engage in respectable debate. It is no more acceptable to misgender a trans person than it is to use perjorative terms for persons of other races or religions or the disabled. Unless the gender-critical cannot find it in themselves to respect others by their behaviour in such common courtesies, then they will always be isolated. A leap of faith and behaviour is required to join the debate."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3593037-Weve-never-believed-in-silencing-debate

I really cannot take seriously the idea that referring to a male person as ‘he’ is grossly offensive, analogous to Nazism, and an imposition of personal beliefs which requires correction by imposing someone else’s belief instead.

It's hardly likely that a way to get on sensibly is ever going to come about whilst women's spaces and safeguards are under attack. That's pretty obvious imo.

I really cannot take seriously the idea that referring to a male person as ‘he’ is grossly offensive, analogous to Nazism, and an imposition of personal beliefs which requires correction by imposing someone else’s belief instead.

Children and women should not be coerced to deny recognition of adult human males. Safeguard measures which are based on sex cannot continue to be dismantled in order to protect/indulge the feelings of a small number of adult human males. This is not proportionate.

@thepuredrop

I really cannot take seriously the idea that referring to a male person as ‘he’ is grossly offensive, analogous to Nazism, and an imposition of personal beliefs which requires correction by imposing someone else’s belief instead.

Well, the law takes it seriously - Taylor v Jaguar and the Equal Treatment Bench Book for example and many trans people find it highly offensive, so a failure to respect that position is likely to be probematiccal for you.

I have just (in the last few minutes) been speaking to Ms Forstster on Twitter and she is asserting that she would always respect a workplace pronoun policy...

Maya has never said she wouldn't be respectful to other people, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make...

An interesting twitter exchange though. I have checked it... ☺️

She's very clear on Twitter.

As she has been, consistently.

Personally I would avoid pronoun use if it represented a conflict between reality & compelled speech, but Maya has said all along that she's completely willing to use courtesy pronouns in the workplace.

It’s hardly going to be problematic for me, it’s the idea that I find ludicrous and it’s the idea that I’m criticising.

Well, the law takes it seriously - Taylor v Jaguar and the Equal Treatment Bench Book for example and many trans people find it highly offensive, so a failure to respect that position is likely to be probematiccal for you.

Law Society Gazette
Warning over transgender guidance to judges
By Melanie Newman24 February 2020
(extract)
The Bench Book advises that transgender defendants should be addressed by the pronouns of their choice and that ‘self-definition is the most important criteria’ (sic). At least one victim of violence by a transgender woman has been reprimanded in court for using male pronouns while describing the attack. Finding the defendant guilty, the judge refused the victim compensation, saying that when asked to refer to the defendant as ‘she’, the victim had done so with ‘bad grace’ or continued to use ‘he’.

Solicitor Harriet Wistrich, head of the Centre for Women’s Justice, has raised concerns about pronoun use in cases involving violence against women. ‘Here there is a conflict between the right of self-definition and the right of a victim, who may have been violated in the most horrendous way, to describe her material reality as she perceives it,’ she said. ‘Why is the victim’s right less important?’

The Bench Book also endorses the terms ‘cisgender’ or ‘cis’ as ‘often used to describe people whose gender identity corresponds to the sex assigned to them at birth’. The book does not mention that some women find the term ‘cis’ offensive. The Gazette understands that the term was also introduced to judges at a training session last year without any kind of warning as to its use.

Criminal defence barrister Allison Bailey of the LGB Alliance, which campaigns for the rights of same-sex attracted people, told the Gazette: ‘Judges have been led to believe that women do not mind being described as cisgender when it is regarded by many, myself included, as highly offensive. I do not have a gender and object to being redefined by men who wish to live as women. It is the most offensive power play.’ (continues)
www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/warning-over-transgender-guidance-to-judges/5103196.article

I have just (in the last few minutes) been speaking to Ms Forstster on Twitter and she is asserting that she would always respect a workplace pronoun policy...

In many situations where one is working with children and/or Vulnerable Adults it would be inappropriate to use incorrect sex based pronouns for adult staff.

Good post R0wantrees