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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Guardian hits new low

133 replies

justawoman · 30/04/2021 18:14

Glorifying a double mastectomy and claiming kids will kill themselves if they can’t get one too. My mother and other women I know have had mastectomies and I know how disfiguring they can be and how much nerve pain, lymphoma etc can happen afterwards. Now it’s presented, in the headline, as a ‘lifesaving’ choice, and no, they’re not talking about cancer:

www.theguardian.com/film/2021/apr/30/elliot-page-happiness-top-surgery-oprah-winfrey-interview

OP posts:

Binglebong · 01/05/2021 10:48

There was one positive about that ver sad interview - her statement explaining that sexual orientation and gender identity are “completely different things”.

Could it be useful for Get the T out of LGB? We need people saying this and the higher profile they are the better.

R0wantrees · 01/05/2021 10:48

I think you're definitely on to something there NiceGerbil. Breast are highly sexualised, even more so in the West. I remember when I was a teen I always wore baggy slouchy clothes to cover my changing body and I know of many friends daughters who do the same.

Combine this with the additional pressures many young same sex-oriented women feel from men's association of 'lesbian' with porn.

JustGotToKeepOnKeepingOn · 01/05/2021 11:06

@heathspeedwell I thought of Michael Jackson too. Who are these surgeons that perform on people with such obvious mental health issues?

Defaultname · 01/05/2021 11:31

@toffeebutterpopcorn

I wish they’d just use the actual medical term. Angelina Jolie did - and she didn’t do a rap dance about how wonderful it was.

The medical term, "The term originates from the Greek word mastos, meaning woman's breast and the Latin term ectomia which signifies excision of." does a fair bit of reality-hiding, too.

'Cutting off the breasts! always sounds harsher, though it's what happens.

Not too long ago, parents would sometimes pay to have their 21-year-old child's teeth removed. All of them. To save them from pain and distress in the future. Aren't we really in that sort of territory here?

Defaultname · 01/05/2021 11:36

This reply has been deleted

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R0wantrees · 01/05/2021 11:37

Guardian
January 2019
'Revealed: 'dozens' of girls subjected to breast-ironing in UK
This article is more than 2 years old
Perpetrators consider it a traditional measure to stop unwanted male attention'

(extract)
"The perpetrators, usually mothers, consider it a traditional measure which protects girls from unwanted male attention, sexual harassment and rape. Medical experts and victims regard it as child abuse which could lead to physical and psychological scars, infections, inability to breastfeed, deformities and breast cancer.

The United Nations describes it as one of five global under-reported crimes relating to gender-based violence." (continues)
www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/jan/26/revealed-dozens-of-girls-subjected-to-breast-ironing-in-uk

NecessaryScene1 · 01/05/2021 11:39

Susanna Rustin (who I had to check is still a Guardian leader writer) also on-side here:

twitter.com/SusannaRustin/status/1388389061988130819

twitter.com/SusannaRustin/status/1388396831118438401

US vs UK relationship tensions...

CardinalLolzy · 01/05/2021 13:18

The medical term,
"The term originates from the Greek word mastos, meaning woman's breast and the Latin term ectomia which signifies excision of."

Does it specify "woman's breast"? In this case they were men's breasts so I wonder if the term mastectomy was used?

Quaagars · 01/05/2021 15:42

I am sure that Elliot is happy as a man but very concerned that he has rushed into irreversible surgery so quickly

Isn't he in his thirties?
If you read the article as well, it says he has felt the disconnect for years (for want of a better expression) and the anguish of dressing up in feminine clothes such as on the red carpet.
Not sure how that's "rushing into it so quickly" if it's been years has known but not just been "out" or come to terms with it (it being the fact is trans for clarity)

SmokedDuck · 01/05/2021 15:47

It's not that many years since EP was doing public events around lesbian identity, so I tend to think this is somewhat recent. But then I am starting to find that things I thought happened five years ago actually happened 25 years ago.

ListeningQuietly · 01/05/2021 15:54

Page was outed as a Lesbian in 2015
Married a woman in 2018
Separated from her / his wife in 2020 and divorced in 2020
came out as Trans in December 2020
and has already had a double mastectomy by April 2021

that seems a pretty hasty turnaround to me

Quaagars · 01/05/2021 16:21

Page was outed as a Lesbian in 2015
Married a woman in 2018
Separated from her / his wife in 2020 and divorced in 2020
came out as Trans in December 2020
and has already had a double mastectomy by April 2021

that seems a pretty hasty turnaround to me

The article says though

Coming out as gay in 2014 “did relieve some stuff for me, I was extremely closeted all through my 20s … but the discomfort with my body didn’t go away,” he said, explaining that sexual orientation and gender identity are “completely different things”.

So sounds like it was always there. Before coming out as gay, even. Even if maybe didn't recognise it as being trans as such to begin with.
So doesn't seem as hasty if you look at it like that

ListeningQuietly · 01/05/2021 16:26

So Page's poor ex wife was just an experiment.

And why, if Transwomen do not feel the need to have surgery of any kind
Transmen feel obliged to get their breasts cut off?

Do transwomen not feel 'discomfort' with their penis and testicles
and the desire to have them removed?

or is that not part of the process for men ?

toffeebutterpopcorn · 01/05/2021 16:28

True. I have heard people talked about lady(you know what) but never man-breasts (in that way anyway). It’s as if it is two very different scenarios.

Quaagars · 01/05/2021 16:31

And why, if Transwomen do not feel the need to have surgery of any kind Transmen feel obliged to get their breasts cut off?

What, all of them?
I'm sure some trans women do have surgery, just like some trans men do.

Quaagars · 01/05/2021 16:34

So Page's poor ex wife was just an experiment

Not really, if he didn't know himself fully what it was.

Quaagars · 01/05/2021 16:35

fully what it was being trans for clarity

ListeningQuietly · 01/05/2021 16:36

This reply has been deleted

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HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 01/05/2021 16:45

@Quaagars

So Page's poor ex wife was just an experiment

Not really, if he didn't know himself fully what it was.

Maybe it's a response to trauma

CardinalLolzy · 01/05/2021 16:45

I'm being genuine here - is it not wrong/unkind to keep referring to him as gay? Was he ever gay if he's always been male? I guess he did identify as gay at one point but that was relative to his previous name/identity/gender?

Floisme · 01/05/2021 18:10

@NecessaryScene1

Susanna Rustin (who I had to check is still a Guardian leader writer) also on-side here:

twitter.com/SusannaRustin/status/1388389061988130819

twitter.com/SusannaRustin/status/1388396831118438401

US vs UK relationship tensions...

Given how it ended for Suzanne Moore at The Guardian I think that's brave of Susanna Rustin.