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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guardian hits new low

133 replies

justawoman · 30/04/2021 18:14

Glorifying a double mastectomy and claiming kids will kill themselves if they can’t get one too. My mother and other women I know have had mastectomies and I know how disfiguring they can be and how much nerve pain, lymphoma etc can happen afterwards. Now it’s presented, in the headline, as a ‘lifesaving’ choice, and no, they’re not talking about cancer:

www.theguardian.com/film/2021/apr/30/elliot-page-happiness-top-surgery-oprah-winfrey-interview

OP posts:
JustcameoutGC · 30/04/2021 23:01

She is so fucking emaciated. That is not a happy and fulfilled person and portraying a double mastectomy as the route to happiness when it so clearly isn't in this instance is so irresponsible.

Scepticaltank · 01/05/2021 01:25

Oprah has jumped the shark. What a ghoul she has become.

Karen Carpenter comes to mind

www.npr.org/2013/02/04/171080334/remembering-karen-carpenter-30-years-later

SmokedDuck · 01/05/2021 04:24

Oprah has been like this for ages, she has no sense of needing to speak responsibly on whatever her pet issue is.

Saltyslug · 01/05/2021 04:39

Sadly Swedish studies show that these operations do not resolve the anxiety

UppityPuppity · 01/05/2021 06:22

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56952345

To complain to the BBC for equally irresponsible reporting?

The frame of the headline and the last line in the article show exactly the BBC’s contempt for quality, evidence based and balanced reporting.

Movistar · 01/05/2021 06:37

@Uppitypuppity I just saw that too. I’m livid - I can choose not to buy the guardian or click on their links but for the bbc to tot out the same (with no comments box...!). Orwellian is the right word.

CousinKrispy · 01/05/2021 06:50

Flowers weebarra

oldwomanwhoruns · 01/05/2021 07:38

A very thoughtful post from @NiceGerbil upthread.
Society (for that, read 'men') are obsessed with breasts
It's now 'jawline change' or 'smaller feet' tw want, it's always breasts. It's the breasts that tm want to be rid of. It's a societal obsession...

Sophoclesthefox · 01/05/2021 07:48

Good grief. EP looks so terribly fragile and sad. I can’t imagine the level of cognitive dissonance required to look at this footage and force yourself to see someone happy and fulfilled. The reporting is so irresponsible. Even if the statistics on suicide in trans young people were true (they’re doubtful, thankfully), that’s still not how responsible reporters and ethical people talk about suicide. This kind of talk encourages suicidality. Ask yourself why anyone would want to do that?

Private healthcare in the UK will fund gender surgery. My insurer wrote me a madly self-congratulatory email announcing it a couple of years back. Hormones and surgery will be funded (interestingly, no mention of therapeutic intervention that I recall). It unfortunately coincided with their telling me that they don’t cover related to the menopause because “that’s not a medical issue”. Odd, that.

OvaHere · 01/05/2021 07:54

I'm wondering why The Guardian can do in depth investigative journalism into Noel Clarke and the wider implications of what young women face in industries such as film and TV yet seem unable to connect the dots?

A former actress who wishes to opt of of womanhood in an extreme way should ring alarm bells, not to mention the thousands of young girls and women who are also treading a similar path.

This unwillingness to show even the most basic curiosity in the links between sexual assault, porn culture, social media, peer pressure etc...that women and girls are facing and this mass (attempted) opting out of being female is why I continue to find The Guardian lacking.

BraveBananaBadge · 01/05/2021 08:13

It leaves a lot to be desired for sure, but what appears in the Guardian is a quick news story from rehashed agency copy about a TV 'moment' that seems to have been given very little thought. It isn't especially about the wider issue.

Unfortunately they're very unlikely to follow this up with any kind of critical thinking. Just because EP has a certain lived experience does not mean they should go unquestioned on dubious claims.

R0wantrees · 01/05/2021 08:59

BBC coverage of the interview:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4232974-BBC-article-on-Elliot-Page

CardinalLolzy · 01/05/2021 09:05

"Fragile and sad" was a super-desirable look in the 90s, iirc. Heroin chic and the like. I can see parallels with what's happening now but re-emerging in a slightly different way - the gloss of "wellness" and "authenticity" are required now.
I'm not being flippant I hope - EP does look fragile!

zzizzer · 01/05/2021 09:11

Oh wow, you weren't kidding about looking fragile and broken.

I wonder at what point does any news agency think "we have a duty of care here, this person might not really be up to this"?

Trixie78 · 01/05/2021 09:20

Actor Elliot Page doesn't look very happy to me if I'm honest. In fact Actor Elliot Page looks positively miserable.

zzizzer · 01/05/2021 09:33

I am genuinely a bit ticked off at the various teams who were all involved in releasing this. These are people who understand image and PR inside out - so they must recognise how vulnerable and damaged Elliot looks at this moment. There was no need to rush this.

Doyoumind · 01/05/2021 09:39

Twitter thinks EP looks happy. Are they watching the same thing I'm watching? It's like one of those psychology experiments where everyone just goes along with what other people say. The reporting and narrative feels incredibly dishonest. I have real concerns about how this will pan out for Page. I hope I'm wrong.

R0wantrees · 01/05/2021 09:42

Twitter thinks EP looks happy. Are they watching the same thing I'm watching?

Those on Twitter are demonstrating projections of self. Its a disturbing illumination.

Datun · 01/05/2021 09:48

@NiceGerbil

The thing that has leapt out at me for ages around this, and continues to do so. In brief.. (I'll try!)

An artful lot of things with this seem to be about breasts.
Binders/ mastectomies
For males, the surgery that seems to be the main one is implants. For those on hormones like that person in the ? Telegraph, their chest growing is inordinately exciting.

What I know is that
Growth of breasts whatever age you are is the sudden point at which men start looking at you differently. Society starts treating you differently. It's when the leering starts and the ideas like you need to cover up (unspoken, because your own growing body puts you at risk). For right or wrong, that's the message. And the breasts are the most obvious thing.
Men in our society utterly fetishise breasts. That what would you do if you were opposite sex for the day, the first thing lots of men would do is play with their tits.
Breasts are to feed babies but that's really gross to much of society because they're for show for men, not for feeding.
Loads of girls have forever tried to hide their chest shape to stop the way it means they are treated.
Breast ironing is a horrendous thing that is done with the aim of holding off the behaviour of men towards girls once their bodies start developing.

So we have.
Girls especially when breasts start growing and through maybe secondary school age actively wishing they would go away.
From a practical pov even if larger they are a PITA. if you are into sport gymnastics etc they get in the way.
In general one way or another many girls and women are not keen. Ambivalent. Would be comfier in many ways without them.
Meanwhile males who are non binary/trans this seems to be a common number 1 wishlist item.

That puts it in a different context. Where do you want to be in the sex class order? Looker or lookee? Able to walk down the high street with no attention or with eyes subtly or not so subtly up and down up and down? That sort of thing.

And of course implants can be removed. A double mastectomy is a much larger operation removing healthy tissue permanently.

Finally. Why is it seen as not a big deal for girls/ women? Is it because society is used to girls and women trying to alter their bodies to fit in with the male gaze? And girls and women understanding that as they live in society too? Restrictive clothes, uncomfortable shoes. In the past foot binding tight corsetry. Having pubic hair ripped out and the idea of an appt at beautician is 'pampering'. (Yes I know some men do it too).

If you don't want the attention discomfort unpleasant things to do with breasts that happen because, men will be men. Then have them cut off.

Yes obviously some people have sex dysphoria.

This focus on the breasts for both male and female without any analysis or attempt to understand if there's something going on. It's obvious to me.

I suppose it's easier not to think about it too much?

Very insightful post. Most women know how breasts are viewed on this country. And that it starts immediately. Big breasts, particularly.

There's loads of comedy about men failing to maintain eye contact due to cleavage. Yet desperately looking anywhere but, during breastfeeding.

You're definitely onto something there NiceGerbil.

TheWeeDonkey · 01/05/2021 10:07

I think you're definitely on to something there NiceGerbil. Breast are highly sexualised, even more so in the West. I remember when I was a teen I always wore baggy slouchy clothes to cover my changing body and I know of many friends daughters who do the same.

I was listening on the Gender: a wider lens Podcast where they were saying that Crowdfunders for "top surgery" were way more popular than any other surgery crowdfund requests.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 01/05/2021 10:11

There's an epidemic of self-harm amongst teenagers in this country (esp girls). It tends to start around age 12. It must be connected to puberty. Yet there is little discussion about whether the desire for increasing numbers of teenagers (esp girls) wanting to lop off perfectly healthy body parts is also connected.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 01/05/2021 10:12

www.beheadstrong.uk/info/self-harm-statistics

HelpMeRhondaYeah · 01/05/2021 10:34

God, poor Elliot Page. I can't help but wonder what might have happened in Elliot's life. Seems so vulnerable.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 01/05/2021 10:43

I wish they’d just use the actual medical term. Angelina Jolie did - and she didn’t do a rap dance about how wonderful it was.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 01/05/2021 10:44

And weren’t they a child star? How many of three reach adulthood unscathed, happy adults?

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