Guardian hits new low

[justawoman]

Glorifying a double mastectomy and claiming kids will kill themselves if they can’t get one too. My mother and other women I know have had mastectomies and I know how disfiguring they can be and how much nerve pain, lymphoma etc can happen afterwards. Now it’s presented, in the headline, as a ‘lifesaving’ choice, and no, they’re not talking about cancer:

www.theguardian.com/film/2021/apr/30/elliot-page-happiness-top-surgery-oprah-winfrey-interview

So, I've got a serious question that has just occurred to me. TRAs support surgical changes to the bodies of people who say they are trans and want surgery to change their bodies, and in this country they want this surgery funded by the NHS.

Not to mention the social questions we are surrounded by. Poverty affects many more children in this country than trans issues. And poverty does kill. Health inequality kills. Why have trans issues come to be given so much airtime, while socioeconomic disadvantage is not recognised as a bigger disability than anything else. We are in a country where the mouthiest win, and I am so sick of seeing that dressed up in the language of 'ethics' and 'human rights', under left-wing banners.

Also, the 'children will die' thing - so Elliot is advocating for double mastectomies on under 18s??? WTF?!

We are in a country where the mouthiest win

We are in a country in the UK where special interest lobby groups have had huge influence over social change thanks to wealthy backers.

Its just wrong on so many levels, mastectomy just like hysterectomy is not a quick fix that will solve all their problems without side effects and to tout is as such is irresponsible and dangerous as is reinforcing the belief that suicide is the only alternative.

Therapy is so important, witout that the underlying problems don't go anywhere.

I have no issue with Elliot speaking for himself, but promoting the belief that suicide is the only way for children to deal with their confusion (some of which is a normal part of puberty) is so wrong.

weebarra I'm so sorry for what you and your family have been through

My biggest problem is that the whole approach to treatment of
gender dysphoria is
affirmative

NO OTHER disease / illness / situation is treated on that basis
(anorexia, cancer, body dysphoria, depression, anxiety you name it)

EVERY OTHER set of clinicians try to

• understand
• analyse
• put into context
• seek to cure (where possible)
• treat (where possible)

so why is gender different ?

Its just wrong on so many levels, mastectomy just like hysterectomy is not a quick fix that will solve all their problems without side effects and to tout is as such is irresponsible and dangerous as is reinforcing the belief that suicide is the only alternative.

Precisely. Its not a 'chop your boobs off and off you go', it is a painful procedure with risk of infection, requiring drains, scarring etc. And yes, this narrative that the only options are 'double mastectomy or suicide' is just absolutely horrendous.

I have no issue with Elliot speaking for himself, but promoting the belief that suicide is the only way for children to deal with their confusion (some of which is a normal part of puberty) is so wrong.

America is so screwed up. Oprah is a national treasure and Elliot is a movie star with a huge following. Where's the scrutiny? Why isn't anyone in the editorial team saying, 'ahem, that bit where she talks about kids chopping their breasts off, maybe you should challenge her on that?'

@ListeningQuietly

My biggest problem is that the whole approach to treatment of gender dysphoria is affirmative

NO OTHER disease / illness / situation is treated on that basis
(anorexia, cancer, body dysphoria, depression, anxiety you name it)

EVERY OTHER set of clinicians try to

• understand
• analyse
• put into context
• seek to cure (where possible)
• treat (where possible)

so why is gender different ?

But the thing is, on top of all this, we are also told time and again that being trans is not a mental illness and that it is offensive and transphobic to suggest that it is.

None of it makes any sense.

What I saw in the Elliot Page clips was someone with obvious mental distress about their body.

Elliot Page appears to be trying to trans away the gay.

I find it very sad.

Letsget
As per threads passim I have a friend who had their full surgery as soon as they could at the age of 18.
I care not whether they were physically ill or mentally ill.

The point is that modern medical treatments have no checks and balances
THAT will turn into malpractice

“Children will die,” Page said. “And it really is that simple.” Disingenuous, wilfully ignoring reality, or spoken from a troubled mindset (in which case addressing those issues might help)? It's neither simple nor true as stated.

so why is gender different ?

Because for the most part these days it's centred on men's wants. Everything else is negated based on how a person feels or what they think, with validation of those feelings at the fore and everything else unnecessary. It's madness, and it really can't go on.

weebarra

Do you think there's the slightest chance of Page turning up in something cheerful on screen? Or will Page continue to be a permanent woe-fest with a face like a slapped arse?

I wonder....

I watched the clip on the Guardian page, and I was struck by how vulnerable and unwell Page seems. I know that everyone is celebrating Page being their 'true self' but Page doesn't seem happy at all. Page seems incredibly depressed, to be honest. Page talks about the transition in religious terms - it's 'miraculous', 'life changing'. Also some doomsday elements - if you don't let 'trans kids play sports' they will 'die', apparently. In fact, it's worse than a religion because at least born again Christians in my experience are super enthusiastic and happy clappy at first.

I am really frightened for Page and the fact that journalists are encouraging this behaviour make me think of Bashir with Michael Jackson.

I think this person seems very troubled. I note that their marriage has also ended recently- seems like a lot of upheaval. The Guardian follows this article with links to previous articles concerning Page. Interesting reading. So sad that Page felt this was the only option for them.

I'm being very careful with my words.

'But the thing is, on top of all this, we are also told time and again that being trans is not a mental illness and that it is offensive and transphobic to suggest that it is.'

Aside from everything else, the way the trans lobby talk as though mental health issues are something shameful that they want to avoid the 'stigma' of isn't exactly 'woke'!

I hope it makes EP truly, radiantly, deeply happy.
There will be a huge amount of pressure to live the rest of his life as a performance of having made the right decision. Just as Tom Cruise yelled his undying love jumping from Oprah's sofa, EP is telling us and himself that everything will be OK now.
And if it's not? Well, everything will just have to be OK.

Page doesn't come across as someone who wants to be in the spotlight. He seems very fragile and it's uncomfortable to watch. The quote about not feeling like themselves since they were ten years old almost sounds as if Page would rather return to a time of childhood and pre-pubescence, not being objectified as a woman, and the surgery has allowed them to reclaim that. Pure armchair psychology, mind.

@PlanDeRaccordement

It is sad. But in US at least there is more foundation to Elliots statement.

Health insurance doesn’t usually cover gender affirming survey at all and so for many young adults, it’s not the dismay of a long waiting list but a large surgical bill that is unaffordable and may never be affordable on an average income. So suicide risk goes up. Resorting to sex work to get the money goes up (which in turn increases odds of being murdered and trauma leading to suicide). Resorting to drug trafficking goes up which increases chances of being shot and killed by police and other drug traffickers.

For countries like the U.K. where it’s paid for by the tax payer via nationalised health system, and it’s just a wait list, Elliot’s comments are hyperbole. Especially since cancer surgery is always life saving and should be prioritised ahead of gender affirming surgery which is only sometimes life saving.

Health insurance doesn’t usually cover gender affirming survey at all

Are you absolutely certain about that point?

I was under the impression that the situation varied by state and that, in some states, for example Medicaid would cover this but in other states it won't. Likewise with employer funded insurance; some will and some won't.

Is that not the case?

nicky
Medicaid does not even cover the anti rejection drugs after a transplant in some states
let alone the people who cannot prove their right to Medicaid / Medicare

34 years old and sounds, in more ways than one, like a twelve-year-old.
Has the voice always been that shaky?

I'm sorry but that doesn't seem like someone who is happy and free. That is someone who is deeply troubled. It's very upsetting to watch.

That's a deeply troubled person. It's very sad. I wonder how Page will feel about the decision in 10 years time. Or even 5 years' time. It doesn't seem like a tenable solution to the problems they're experiencing.

@Doyoumind

I'm sorry but that doesn't seem like someone who is happy and free. That is someone who is deeply troubled. It's very upsetting to watch.

No, the last thing that would come to mind seeing Elliot in that interview is that they are 'liberated'. It really is upsetting and uncomfortable to watch.