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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater’s appeal - discussion thread 2

252 replies

Sophoclesthefox · 28/04/2021 16:40

I see the last thread filled up, but there might still be enough to discuss as a round up of the afternoon’s events to keep going into a second thread.

Thread one here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4228233-Maya-Forstaters-appeal-skeleton

OP posts:
Shedbuilder · 29/04/2021 09:50

Yourhairiswinterfire, I'm really pleased about this. In my last post I wrote 'We need a public enquiry' and then thought that I sounded too ambitious and deleted it, so the knowledge that Emma Nicholson is working up to that has actually made me shed a few tears of relief.

I used to be involved with Stonewall: I sat on committees, went to conferences, that sort of thing. I can't believe that an organisation I used to stand behind 100% has gone so badly wrong. It's an absolute scandal.

GreyhoundG1rl · 29/04/2021 09:52

@yourhairiswinterfire

How long before someone in authority decides to start asking serious questions?

Baroness Nicholson is apparently working on a public enquiry into the capture that has happened. She says she has loads of superb people 'on standby', and replied to someone that looking into lobbying especially is 'very important'.

I really hope she can make it happen 🤞

Oh, wow. That woman 😍😍😍
SunsetBeetch · 29/04/2021 09:56

[quote littlbrowndog]There an ongoing project called project nettie which is a statement signed by many accredited scientists and medical professionals stating that humans are a sexually dimorphic species and sex is immutable

projectnettie.wordpress.com/[/quote]
Oh this is good to see. Scientists upholding actual science!

R0wantrees · 29/04/2021 10:05

I used to be involved with Stonewall: I sat on committees, went to conferences, that sort of thing. I can't believe that an organisation I used to stand behind 100% has gone so badly wrong. It's an absolute scandal.

The scandal goes far further back and beyond Stonewall and should focus on the lobbyists who gained undue infuence in Westminster and public services long before they finally succeeded in capturing this formerly LGB charity.

relevant thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

Shedbuilder · 29/04/2021 10:14

I'm going to have to bookmark that to read over the weekend.

yourhairiswinterfire · 29/04/2021 10:16

I'm really pleased about this. In my last post I wrote 'We need a public enquiry' and then thought that I sounded too ambitious and deleted it, so the knowledge that Emma Nicholson is working up to that has actually made me shed a few tears of relief.

We need it so badly, don't we? If anyone can get it done, it's BN!

R0wantrees · 29/04/2021 10:28

I'm really pleased about this. In my last post I wrote 'We need a public enquiry' and then thought that I sounded too ambitious and deleted it, so the knowledge that Emma Nicholson is working up to that has actually made me shed a few tears of relief.

Women should expect and demand a public enquiry as to how our sex based rights and the Safeguarding frameworks intended to protect children and vulnerable people were allowed to become so compromised.
MPs of all parties and many senior public office holders have been derelict in their responsibilities for too long.

Their primary responsibility is to act in the national interest. They must also act in the interests of their constituents where this does not override their primary responsibility. Finally, if they belong to a political party, they may act in the interests of that party, subordinate to the other two responsibilities.

The Seven Principles of Public Life
An overview of the 'Nolan principles', which are the basis of the ethical standards expected of public office holders.
The Seven Principles of Public Life outline the ethical standards those working in the public sector are expected to adhere to. They were first set out by Lord Nolan in 1995 in the first report of the Committee on Standards in Public Life and they are included in a range of Codes of Conduct across public life.

The Seven Principles of Public Life (also known as the Nolan Principles) apply to anyone who works as a public office-holder. This includes all those who are elected or appointed to public office, nationally and locally, and all people appointed to work in the Civil Service, local government, the police, courts and probation services, non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs), and in the health, education, social and care services. All public office-holders are both servants of the public and stewards of public resources. The principles also apply to all those in other sectors delivering public services.

1.1 Selflessness
Holders of public office should act solely in terms of the public interest.

1.2 Integrity
Holders of public office must avoid placing themselves under any obligation to people or organisations that might try inappropriately to influence them in their work. They should not act or take decisions in order to gain financial or other material benefits for themselves, their family, or their friends. They must declare and resolve any interests and relationships.

1.3 Objectivity
Holders of public office must act and take decisions impartially, fairly and on merit, using the best evidence and without discrimination or bias.

1.4 Accountability
Holders of public office are accountable to the public for their decisions and actions and must submit themselves to the scrutiny necessary to ensure this.

1.5 Openness
Holders of public office should act and take decisions in an open and transparent manner. Information should not be withheld from the public unless there are clear and lawful reasons for so doing.

1.6 Honesty
Holders of public office should be truthful.

1.7 Leadership
Holders of public office should exhibit these principles in their own behaviour. They should actively promote and robustly support the principles and be willing to challenge poor behaviour wherever it occurs.
www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-7-principles-of-public-life/the-7-principles-of-public-life--2

Shedbuilder · 29/04/2021 10:56

Already have a list half a mile long of people that need a reminder of that, starting with the WEC and my MP.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 29/04/2021 10:57

Also where is the objective quality assurance of government publications to ensure they don’t misstate the law. There must be a duty to get it right.

PronounssheRa · 29/04/2021 11:05

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Also where is the objective quality assurance of government publications to ensure they don’t misstate the law. There must be a duty to get it right.
That sounds like an FOI in the making for every government department to find out what assurance there is for policy in each department
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 29/04/2021 11:21

I'm increasingly hacked off that Nolan seems to be for the little people like me rather than observed by everybody in public life.

Literally every time I attend a meeting that involves a public body, has implications for budgets or spending, I have to fill out a detailed Declaration of Interest and a separate Conflict of Interest form that covers every possible permutation of direct or indirect interest in a particular topic, and academic or commercial bodies connected with it or competitors to it - and that's not just for me as an individual, I have to attest to this for family/friends/colleagues. I also need to declare that I have now, and never had had, involvement in any way shape or form with [X - fill in established menaces to public health topic] companies.

I could grumble at greater length as this has been infuriating me on a regular basis since the part of the pandemic.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/04/2021 12:02

Baroness Nicholson is apparently working on a public enquiry into the capture that has happened. She says she has loads of superb people 'on standby', and replied to someone that looking into lobbying especially is 'very important'

That's encouraging.

GreyhoundG1rl · 29/04/2021 12:08

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Baroness Nicholson is apparently working on a public enquiry into the capture that has happened. She says she has loads of superb people 'on standby', and replied to someone that looking into lobbying especially is 'very important'

That's encouraging.

That's bloody incredible.
Mollyollydolly · 29/04/2021 12:09

Emma is great and with all the controversy around lobbying and Cameron at the moment it could really happen. Might just be a case of broadening the remit of ongoing inquiries to include charities. She'll be all over it!

highame · 29/04/2021 12:11

I wonder if there is a way we could make a concerted effort to bring this to the attention of those (we want a public enquiry) in power including the judiciary. Writing to MP's is all very well, but a lot of them will only work on party political lines and us writing wont shift them.

Does anyone know the best way to go about this that doesn't involve us having to go through the courts. There are plenty of cases but by the time they get to court, so much extra damage will have been done that it will hardly be worth the effort (think single sex loos and the response being, yes but we already use them).

GreyhoundG1rl · 29/04/2021 12:14

There are plenty of cases but by the time they get to court, so much extra damage will have been done that it will hardly be worth the effort (think single sex loos and the response being, yes but we already use them).
God, that's a chilling reminder that so much has happened ahead of the law, there could be arguments that precedents have already been set.

R0wantrees · 29/04/2021 12:21

I wonder if there is a way we could make a concerted effort to bring this to the attention of those (we want a public enquiry) in power including the judiciary. Writing to MP's is all very well, but a lot of them will only work on party political lines and us writing wont shift them.

'The Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards is an independent officer of the House of Commons. The current Commissioner is Kathryn Stone OBE. '

www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/standards-and-financial-interests/parliamentary-commissioner-for-standards/

Shedbuilder · 29/04/2021 12:30

@highame

I wonder if there is a way we could make a concerted effort to bring this to the attention of those (we want a public enquiry) in power including the judiciary. Writing to MP's is all very well, but a lot of them will only work on party political lines and us writing wont shift them.

Does anyone know the best way to go about this that doesn't involve us having to go through the courts. There are plenty of cases but by the time they get to court, so much extra damage will have been done that it will hardly be worth the effort (think single sex loos and the response being, yes but we already use them).

Yes, with knobs on. What can we do to apply pressure for a Public Enquiry?

I know my MP doesn't get to see the letters I write. His assistant filters out anything they don't approve of. I know because when I finally managed to get a Zoom meeting with him (by lying and saying I wanted to discuss something else) he was embarrassed that he hadn't seen a single one of the many letters and emails I sent him last year alone. He is GC and scared of the assistant provided by Party HQ reporting on him.

Pity that Allison Bailey's case has been put back to next year, because that's the one that will really blow Stonewall's cover to the wider public.

Is anyone in touch with Emma Nicholson? How can we show that there is a public hunger for an enquiry?

R0wantrees · 29/04/2021 12:36

Is anyone in touch with Emma Nicholson? How can we show that there is a public hunger for an enquiry?

Email [email protected]
Twitter twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1323560144006008832
(Do not use DMs)

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 29/04/2021 12:45

He is GC and scared of the assistant provided by Party HQ reporting on him.

What!?! (Mutters about democratic process, access to elected officials, whines again about Nolan principles plainly being for little people.)

I am genuinely concerned at what happens when people of a particular mindset occupy all of these, junior but very key positions and how much influence they have in setting up an Overton Window or adding to the distortion of preference falsification for elected officials.

R0wantrees · 29/04/2021 12:51

I am genuinely concerned at what happens when people of a particular mindset occupy all of these, junior but very key positions and how much influence they have in setting up an Overton Window or adding to the distortion of preference falsification for elected officials.

Its been a key factor, particularly with so much being managed online, via email etc. Those in junior roles are shaping policy, messaging and narrative.

The role that some in the Civil Service have played, and continue to play, also cannot be underestimated.

highame · 29/04/2021 13:06

Thanks for the info. Am going to play around with a letter to the Parliamentary Commissioner for standards and do some more badgering of my MP and is it true that if I send a letter to Liz Truss via my MP, she is bound to respond?

I have a feeling that the yogyakarta principles and the EU (though I'm pro EU) play a big part in this, with countries bounding ahead without putting into law. SO bloody fed up but will be cheery and positive when the next victory (however small) comes along.

R0wantrees · 29/04/2021 13:10

It is worthwhile to keep sending letters/emails to MPs with specific issues and concerns. Even when they are ignoring them.
When there is an inquiry (which there will be) this disregard may be important evidence.

highame · 29/04/2021 13:16

There'll be lots of evidence from MNetters then Grin.

Helleofabore · 29/04/2021 13:20

@R0wantrees

Is anyone in touch with Emma Nicholson? How can we show that there is a public hunger for an enquiry?

Email [email protected]
Twitter twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1323560144006008832
(Do not use DMs)

Please be sure to make an offer to help if you can too. Sometimes she has need of some internet research work etc. She adds you to the list.