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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater is entitled to her views, but anti-transgender beliefs don’t belong in the workplace

235 replies

Trixie78 · 27/04/2021 20:54

I don't even know where to start with the inaccuracies in this article. It's making my blood boil.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/maya-forstater-rowling-trans-b1838137.html

OP posts:
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PopperUppleton · 28/04/2021 10:19

R0wantrees you're awesome. Literally. I am in awe of your knowledge, research skills and also your patience.

ANewCreation · 28/04/2021 10:29

These are some of the Core Principles of Ethical Journalism:

  1. Truth & Accuracy
  2. Independence/objectivity
  3. Fairness & Impartiality
  4. Humanity
  5. Accountability

I know it's just an opinion piece on a glorified Saudi/Russian oligarch's blog site but this is really poor on all counts.

As we were reminded yesterday, Maya's belief in the immutability of sex is already protected under the Equality Act.

"Thus, Sch 3, para 24 provides that it is not unlawful gender reassignment discrimination for a person approving or solemnising a marriage under religious rites to refuse to do so if they believe that a person’s gender has been acquired under a Gender Recognition Certificate (corresponding provision is made in s.5B of the Marriage Act 1949); that is, because they hold a religious belief that sex is immutable. There can be no justifiable basis in law for distinguishing between religious or philosophical belief..."

Karon Monaghan QC for the EHRC

Exceptions - such as here to solemnising religious marriage and elsewhere with regard to single-sex spaces - are made even for those with a GRC within the provision of the Equality Act.

Here, the immutability of sex means that those people with religious beliefs which prohibit same sex marriage are protected from being compelled to approve or solemnise relationships against their conscience or beliefs.

Yes, some people might find those religious beliefs offensive or harmful - and it would certainly not be an easy conversation for a priest to have should a male with a GRC stating they were female want to marry someone male in the Catholic Church - but both the GRA and Equality Act list exceptions due to the fundamental immutability and primacy of sex.

ArabellaScott · 28/04/2021 10:32

Is the Independent regulated by anyone?

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 10:40

I can't even muster the slightest desire to read anything printed in the Indie these days. It's just become the most fact-free online whifflepaper.

One of the authors of the opinion piece (Robin White) is a self-described, "trans pioneer in the legal profession", providing evidence to Women and Equalities Committee, influencing women's political representation campaigns such as 50-50, publishing legal guide and advising employers/ trade bodies. However poor and lamentable The Independent's editorial standards are now, the article warrants some analysis.

relevant background:
Article by Robin White for legal 500

October 2019

see screenshots for extracts including,

Characterisation of gender critical feminists seeking to protect Safeguarding and women's sex based rights as being those who "would have trans rights rolled back or restricted" which White describes as "just silly".

Assertion that having undertaken various cosmetic surgeries (details included) a male barrister becomes a "female barrister" and "true self"

Claim of need for employers to provide "advanced Equality training" no doubt offered by White and perhaps a little ahead of the actual law?

indd.adobe.com/view/555ccd58-1fd7-4dae-b545-043723d3e299

Women & Equalities Committee
Oral evidence: Reform of the Gender Recognition
Act, HC 884
Wednesday 10 February 2021
(extract)
Q60 Angela Crawley: Now, the concept of the gender recognition panel is obviously to review applications for gender recognition. Robin, I appreciate you said you do not have a gender recognition certificate, but what process or system do you think should be considered in place of a gender recognition panel?

Robin Moira White: Here I am speaking really quite personally. At the
time I went through transition, the idea of then resubmitting myself for assessment by a group of people to validate what I have done— As it happens I tick every box, and here I am 10 years on, thinking why would I bother now, frankly." (continues)

committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/1693/default/

Maya Forstater is entitled to her views, but anti-transgender beliefs don’t belong in the workplace
Maya Forstater is entitled to her views, but anti-transgender beliefs don’t belong in the workplace
Maya Forstater is entitled to her views, but anti-transgender beliefs don’t belong in the workplace
everybodysang · 28/04/2021 10:44

fantastic article. Very glad you brought it to my attention, thank you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/04/2021 10:44

The Independent is regulated about as much as Pink News.

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 10:59

Women & Equalities Committee
Oral evidence: Reform of the Gender Recognition
Act, HC 884
Wednesday 10 February 2021

67-68
Karon Monaghan: ...The Equality Act works by
protecting people against discrimination because they have got particular characteristics. One set of characteristics that is protected under the Act concerns gender reassignment. If you are a person who is undergoing, or has undergone, gender reassignment, you are protected against discrimination, just as you are protected against discrimination because you are disabled, from an ethnic minority group and so on.
Separately, the Equality Act protects against sex discrimination, and it defines sex very precisely as being a man or being a woman. Then it
defines being a man or being a woman as being male or female.
So
“gender reassignment” is concerned with protecting trans people or people who are undergoing gender reassignment against discrimination, and the Act separately protects females and males against sex discrimination. (continues)

Naomi Cunningham: I would just like to finish this thought, if I may. The fact that all those exceptions are founded on biological sex means that although the legal formalities of justifying excluding an individual with a GRC from a women-only service or space may be slightly different, in practice the answer is likely to be the same in almost every situation, because in practice it makes no difference whether someone has a certificate or not. It doesn’t make a difference to whether it impinges on the dignity and privacy of women using that service, or overrides their consent.
For example, if I use a women-only changing room, my consent is to
undress in the company of other women, and the reason why parliament has said that I am entitled to have the benefit of those exceptions is to do with biological sex. The fact that somebody has a gender recognition certificate doesn’t actually change that. It doesn’t mean that I feel more comfortable in the presence of somebody, in that particular situation, who I experience as male. A certificate doesn’t make a difference. I think that is quite important to understand, and how commonplace this is and how fundamentally it is based on consent. To override that is seriously concerning.

Robin Moira White: I slightly disagree with Karon on the analysis of the Act and I think it is important.
... The definition in the Equality Act is that a woman is a female of any age and a man is a male of any age. Forgive me, Karon’s analysis is perfectly intellectually valid, but a different analysis—and we haven’t tried this through—is that all that those definitions do is say that a girl is a woman and a boy is a man. ELA’s view is that there is a complete lack of clarity about that in the Act, so working out who is in which sex for the purposes of the Act is still something that needs to be clarified either in terms of litigation or in more legislation"

NB Karon Monighan QC represented EHRC's intervention for Maya Fostater's Appeal yesterday
hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-submissions-ehrc-final-amended.pdf

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 28/04/2021 11:19

@WindyPudding

This again - this fundamentally false claim that wanting to be able to “believe in” (I.e. accept) and live by reality is “anti-trans” or somehow to do with wanting to hurt people’s feelings and discriminate against them for the sake of it.

I have always known that sex exists in humans, is functionally binary, is important in some situations and cannot be literally changed. It never for a second occurred to me to even think about trans issues much at all let alone in a negative way, until some trans activists started demanding that I literally believe a man is a woman, that all you have to do make it so is to say so, and that I can’t have my own reality-based opinions on the matter on pain of being sacked. That behaviour is discriminatory and attacking - believing sex exists isn’t.

I don’t feel unable to cope with the fact that some people have different beliefs from me or feel attacked by it. Because some trans people and their allies do, they’re attempting to make society have only one belief, one that’s counter to a biological reality we all actually have to live by.

If we can’t stand up against that then we’re basically heading for a totalitarian, thought-policing, faith-based state. Not wanting that is nothing to do with hating trans people. Lots of trans people agree with what I say here themselves. Even the ones who are trying to push this idiocy, I don’t hate, I don’t mind them identifying as trans, I think they should have the same protections as anyone else.

But no other group is protected from having to listen to people talking about reality because it hurts their feelings.

I wish I could thank this post 100 times!

Underneath all of this is such a sinister attempt to manipulate and intimidate those who don't agree with their view of themselves. Everyone should be worried about this, whatever side of this debate they are on.

I would love to ask all those on the side of the TRAs, what happens when something comes along that you don't agree with - will you be brave enough to stand up and say so, or will you be too afraid that the frothing mob will come after you.

It's not even about the topic, it's about the fact that we are not allowed to disagree with or debate the topic without aggressive reprisal.

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 19:35

Compare and contrast yesterday's Independent's opinion piece by Robin White and Molly Mulready with today's article by Jo Batosch (a journalist) for The Critic

28 April, 2021
'Is a victory for freedom of speech in sight?'
(extract)

"The arguments made before the EAT were eloquent and compelling, with references to the big beasts of liberty and free speech, from JS Mill to George Orwell. And yet, there was something surreal about watching the highly qualified barrister Ben Cooper QC explaining common sense to the Court as if it were some fringe, esoteric belief. As legal commentator Joshua Rozenberg notes in his analysis of the arguments, “There is nothing scandalous or reprehensible about [Forstater’s] beliefs. For many, they represent prevailing orthodoxy.”

The fleshy 50-page skeleton argument produced by Forstater’s legal team picked apart the original Employment Tribunal (ET) ruling with merciless, forensic precision. Interventions from Karon Monaghan QC of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) and Aileen McColgan QC from Index on Censorship also pointed the finger at errors in the original case, the latter “respectfully” suggesting that “the ET took the wrong approach”.

Central to the case in Forstater’s favour is Article 9 of European Convention on Human Rights, which guarantees “the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion”. Categorising Forstater’s observation about the biological reality of sex a “belief” seems topsy-turvy, but as noted in EHRC skeleton papers, “A belief may be theistic but may too be based in a belief that something is a scientific reality.”

In the original ruling Judge Tayler stated: “The claimant is absolutist in her view of sex and it is a core component of her belief that she will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment.”

But Forstater has been clear that she will refer to individuals according to their preference and not seek to cause offence; she simply reserves the right to refer to sex when she deems it relevant. As Cooper told the Court yesterday: “Freedom of speech emphatically extends to that which might offend … to insist on preferred pronouns is compelled speech.”

As noted by EHRC, the original ET ruling “spent two pages addressing the disadvantages experienced by transpeople” and “three pages on the protections the law provides to transpeople against discrimination”. The inference here is clear, the ET indulged in a value judgement about the validity Forstater’s beliefs, rather than addressing her right to hold them. As noted by Rozenberg, “It is surprising and worrying that the tribunal saw it as its role to dissect beliefs in this way and to dictate what is or is not an acceptable basis for a belief; and it shows just how far off the rails the tribunal went.”

One suspects that today Judge James Tayler will be feeling somewhat judged. In the two years since he passed judgement things have changed; the illogical and petulant demands of trans activists are being challenged. (continues)

concludes
From the Equal Treatment Bench Book (the guidance to which judges refer) to the Ministry of Justice’s membership of the Stonewall Champions Scheme, transgender ideology has permeated the judiciary. But slowly, as cases are put before the higher courts, much needed light and scrutiny is being shone on policies made in the dark.

Should Maya Forstater win, it will not simply be a victory for her; heterodox thinkers across the UK will breathe a sigh of relief. No-one should face the loss of their livelihood or any stain on their reputation for telling the truth."
thecritic.co.uk/is-a-victory-for-freedom-of-speech-in-sight/

TinselAngel · 28/04/2021 22:01

Journalism, it's not something everyone can do.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 28/04/2021 22:16

Nowadays the Independent's comment pieces (and, sadly, news reports) amount to nothing much more than advertorials for whichever movement they're getting behind this week. The lack of analysis and critical thinking is startling.

stumbledin · 28/04/2021 23:56

Its admirable that anyone has bothered to read it and take it seriously enough to respond to it.

But in fact it is just one of the many articles of a type that news outlets that have reported on the Maya Forstater - where they have had to report what was said - have all commissioned to show how horrible it is that Maya is doing this.

We all now the arguements about this.

What needs to be done is telling newspapers or web based news outlets that they aren't pulling the wool over our eyes.

Endlessly telling ourselves what we already know but not attempting to challenge the source of these falsehoods quite honestly serves little purpose.

It is noticeably that this comment piece, is not open to comments. This is another trend that newspapers are doing, ie placing comment pieces next door to an actual news story as though trying to say what someone feels about something trumps actual facts.

Now where have we heard that tactic before.

Why doesn't someone compile the comments here and send them to the editor?

Seriously, at this rate we will all be going to our graves having perfected our arguements with people who agree with us anyway, but never put them to the people are arguements are actually with.

stumbledin · 29/04/2021 00:13

I was going to suggest making comments on the Independent's facebook page, but it looks like quite a few people are picking this stupid article apart.

www.facebook.com/TheIndependentOnline/posts/10159361166056636

DisgustedofManchester · 29/04/2021 00:53

One of the concerns in the evidence MF's QC gave was that some religions believed that biological sex was immutable also to support her rights. The same religions believe the same about homosexuality, sex outside of marriage, abortion, women's rights, birth control.

It is a lot of what ifs but lets try one on for size. A woman has an abortion ( the woman's right to choose is immutable in my book ) but it bbecomes known at work by a collegue who is pro life. This person has only to stay the right side of harassment now in the workplace.

For the small number of trans women in the workplace who will encounter the even smaller number of gender critical women, there is a larger number of pro lifers , backed by Heritage Foundation money and AFD deper pockets now who will quote the precedent if MF wins. Enjoy what will be a shallow victory though I actually still hope it gets thrown aout as what it is, a request by a person to be nasty to others.

GreyhoundG1rl · 29/04/2021 00:56

A woman has an abortion ( the woman's right to choose is immutable in my book ) but it bbecomes known at work by a collegue who is pro life. This person has only to stay the right side of harassment now in the workplace.
As opposed to what? Hmm

SmokedDuck · 29/04/2021 01:00

@WindyPudding

No person is entitled to knowingly cause pain to another employee

But if it’s just having a different belief, it’s only causing pain if the other person can’t bear disagreement and that’s arguably their problem.

If your identity is that you’re black when you’re actually white, that you’re 6 foot tall when you’re actually 5 foot, or that you’re infallible when actually you messed up, people are allowed to disagree and believe otherwise, even if you don’t like it, even at work. If you are a Christian, people are allowed to say they don’t believe in god, even if it hurts your feelings, You are still protected against discrimination and bullying anyway, but not against people disagreeing with you - not actively to hurt you, but because they are allowed to have their own beliefs.

People, all the time, have to work with others who really dislike their political or religious beliefs. And while usually people tend to be reticent about these things at work, it's not always completely unknown how people feel.

Adults deal with the fact that not everyone thinks the same way do, or likes the things you think are true or important. Anyone with an ounce of self-reflection knows that they themselves feel this way about other people at times.

Scepticaltank · 29/04/2021 01:25

This person has only to stay the right side of harassment now in the workplace.

This is the standard now and always will be. That's all anyone has to do.

The made up rubbish about precedent for pro lifers is nonsense.

Datun · 29/04/2021 01:39

This person has only to stay the right side of harassment now in the workplace.

Exactly tho.

And women who have had an abortion or are pro choice, will of course encounter a number of anti abortionists. I have myself. It's completely normal to encounter people who don't share your politics, beliefs, standards, ethics, etc.

As you point out, people tend to 'stay the right side of harassment'.

All very normal.

RedDogsBeg · 29/04/2021 01:45

This person has only to stay the right side of harassment now in the workplace.

That applies to everyone, including those who believe in gender ideology.

though I actually still hope it gets thrown aout as what it is, a request by a person to be nasty to others.

No, it isn't. It is a request by a person to have a perfectly reasonable and factual belief protected and not to be discriminated against for holding it.

Datun · 29/04/2021 01:59

though I actually still hope it gets thrown aout as what it is, a request by a person to be nasty to others.

I'm amazed that people think this of Maya. She's said numerous times that she would use preferred pronouns out of politeness. She is an incredibly civil woman.

What she is contesting is that she lost her job because of her very commonplace and almost universally shared, beliefs.

Scepticaltank · 29/04/2021 02:08

Disgusted is contradictory, being nasty not the right side of harassment.

Talking about Top Women in Finance awards being given to men is not nasty.

Discussing a government consultation on gender recognition is not nasty.

If you have convinced yourself that a woman talking about these things in normal everyday human terms is nasty then you have become the prejudiced person yourself.

R0wantrees · 29/04/2021 07:23

Its always useful when confronted with obvious false allegations to remember that in context of narcissistic abuse/ coercive control behaviours these may often be projections.

Darlene Lancer
'How to Confront Narcissists' Lethal Weapon: Projection
Find out how to identify and confront projection and stop abuse'
(extract)
"Understanding how projective identification works is crucial for self-protection. Recognizing the defense can be a valuable tool, for it’s a window into the unconscious mind of an abuser. We can actually experience what he or she is feeling and thinking. Armed with this knowledge, if someone shames us, we realize that he or she is projecting and reacting to his or her own shame. It can give us empathy, which is helpful, provided we have good self-esteem and empathy for ourselves! Building self-esteem by disarming our inner critic is our first defense against projection.

Still, you may feel baffled about what to do. When someone projects onto you, simply set a boundary. This gives the projection back to the speaker. You’re establishing a force field–an invisible wall. Say something like:

“I don’t see it that way.”
“I disagree.”
“I don’t take responsibility for that.”
“That’s your opinion.”
article continues after advertisement

It’s important not to argue or defend yourself, because that gives credence to the projector’s false reality. If the abuser persists, you can say, “We simply disagree,” and leave the conversation. The projector will have to stew in his or her own negative feelings."
www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/toxic-relationships/201903/how-confront-narcissists-lethal-weapon-projection

WindyPudding · 29/04/2021 07:58

Yes it’s interesting that “not being harassed” isn’t seen as a reasonable compromise. I would never harass, bully or torment someone for their views, even if I found them abhorrent. That’s how adults in a workplace co-exist - we accept there are a wide range of views.

But for trans ideology that’s not enough - it’s offensive and unbearable to have to work with someone who doesn’t agree with you, even if they behave respectfully. It’s bizarre.

stumblein I do know what you mean but discussing the issue here (and not just this one, other feminist issues too) helps me a lot, it helps me to work through my thoughts and interrogate them logically.

Plus I think as mumsnet is a public forum and known to be a next of evil GC vipers, anyone who wants to understand the GC viewpoint can come here and discuss it or read threads. That is extremely useful I think given the one-sidedness of most media.

And also I think many of us are writing to the papers, challenging “gender” categorisation, making feminist points in everyday life.

R0wantrees · 29/04/2021 08:38

It is noticeably that this comment piece, is not open to comments. This is another trend that newspapers are doing, ie placing comment pieces next door to an actual news story as though trying to say what someone feels about something trumps actual facts.

Now where have we heard that tactic before.

Some people wish only to broadcast their erroneous claims and false allegations whilst using a range of strategies to try to silence dissenters (especially uppity women) and/or prevent others from hearing critique and analysis. Apparently believing that what's sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander.

Why doesn't someone compile the comments here and send them to the editor?
A good idea.

TinselAngel · 29/04/2021 08:57

Why doesn't someone compile the comments here and send them to the editor?

I'm happy to provide my deleted comments if anybody does this but I'm too busy with Trans Widows' Voices submission to the WESC to take the task on myself.

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