‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

‘I do think groups that are 'intersectional' as it were should really organise more amongst themselves because a LOT of energy can be wasted trying to explain your position to someone who has absolutely zero interest in listening or understanding you - but they're absolutely happy to leave you emotionally and mentally drained so that they deplete your resources.’

I have a pretty good understanding of intersectionality. I just don’t agree that it is a useful approach in most circumstances.

@Quaagars

Has anyone got any? People on this very thread have given their experiences, and explained that not being white (whether that be black, or Indian, or whatever, before anyone makes another ridiculous assumption that means I don't care about any other non white people when I do) adds a whole other level on TOP of what women who are white don't have. So there's one where differences matter. Or is that not going to count either, because that's anecdotal or whatever!? People can give examples all day long but they're never enough, are they...

Well, no, examples aren't enough to "prove" that a particular analytical framework is the best one. You actually have to make a case for that.

Even if we think that every personal example someone has given on the thread can be taken at absolute face value, that is not going to achieve that, and even on the thread people from marginalised groups have not always shared the same perceptions. And we also I think all know of plenty of other people with their own experiences who see them through different lenses than any of the people here. I know non-white women in male dominated professions who think their race and sex were advantageous to them in their career, I have heard personal stories from black men in the US who do not believe blackness itself is a barrier to high level success - do you think those personal stories are proof?

I do think groups that are 'intersectional' as it were should really organise more amongst themselves because a LOT of energy can be wasted trying to explain your position to someone who has absolutely zero interest in listening or understanding you - but they're absolutely happy to leave you emotionally and mentally drained so that they deplete your resources

Very true

Well SmokedDuck we have our very own Kemi Badenoch - the wonderful thing about getting Black people to repeat back to Black people that racism doesn't exist or some variation thereof is that it means nobody has to do anything about it. It's also an excellent hustle for Black and minority people - go against the 'acceptable' discourse and before you know it you'll get TV talking gigs, book deals, columns... I hope I'm never that broke but it's very lucrative I notice.

Badenoch does believe racism exists.

I also think that as soon as someone uses ‘privilege’ it becomes obvious that they don’t actually do any activism or work with people experiencing multiple disadvantages.

That simply is not true, and it's a tactic used to dismiss people's validity as activists and dismiss people's own experience.

"If you don't think exactly the same as me and use the exact same language as me then you're obviously not a real activist" is used as a weapon to censor and put people down all the time, and IMO it's never acceptable.

I've been involved in women's rights activism for more than 20 years, and am very active in setting up and running programmes to support young people from marginalised groups in my own industry and in fighting for greater representation. Right now I'm on two boards created to support working class creatives and to overcome class barriers in the film/TV industry and am heading a project which is small-scale but will make meaningful measurable change in helping working class artists get their work on TV. I am personally directly responsible for 6 working class artists (many of whom experience multiple forms of disadvantage, such as being WC and black, or WC and disabled) receive their TV debuts.

A huge part of my day to day life and work is working with people who experience multiple disadvantages (class and race, class and gender, and often disability as an intersection with other forms of disadvantage). I resent being told I obviously have no experience in what is literally my day job simply because I used a term you happen to dislike.

Intersectionality is a tool developed for lawyers. Outside of that sphere, nobody actually uses it.

It's used constantly within both the TV/film world, the theatre world, and the third sector. I don't know any lawyers and I hear the word "intersectionality" on a daily basis both in casual conversations and in the workplace.

@Quaagars I think you might be misreading my tone there. I wasn’t asking in order to deny it. I’m on board with the idea that women of colour are always up against a racism dimension. But I’m trying to understand more, besides that, whether we’ve got other differences that mean that our feminism would otherwise differ? I was saying earlier that I associate white feminism with corporate culture and indeed the idea of feminism as professional advancement doesn’t do much for me! And I can imagine that white women trying to “liberate” Muslims from hijabs is probably not great. But what else am I missing?

Froggy, people use terms like intersectionality without actually applying the theory.

If you use the term privilege when referring to disadvantaged people, I have no reason to disbelieve you. I don’t have any experience of the arts and it might be an acceptable way to talk about people you are supposed to be helping in that field.

@Quaagars

Has anyone got any? People on this very thread have given their experiences, and explained that not being white (whether that be black, or Indian, or whatever, before anyone makes another ridiculous assumption that means I don't care about any other non white people when I do) adds a whole other level on TOP of what women who are white don't have. So there's one where differences matter. Or is that not going to count either, because that's anecdotal or whatever!? People can give examples all day long but they're never enough, are they...

You keep ignoring my question about white Jewish people. Many (but by no means all) Jewish people are white. And they most certainly do experience racism. Like I said in a previous post, a good example can be seen in the David Baddiel zoom chat thread.

Wrt antisemitism I thought it so sad how Jewish voters felt about voting at the last election.

There are huge similarities;

I really don't think this true. There aren't huge similarities between the USA and the UK.
There is a partial colonial history and a shared first language.

What is true is that the USA's recent status as a superpower means that their culture is often familiar to us.

There are going to be some things that each country does better.

Intersectionality, as Crenshaw originally described it, is the basis of Section 14 of the Equality Act. It makes it unlawful to discriminate against someone because of a combination of two protected characteristics. Importantly, a complainant does not have to show they have been discriminated against because of each of the protected characteristics taken separately.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/14

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/2/2

Section 14 of the EA has never been brought into force, it's just sat there twiddling its thumbs for a decade. I don't know enough about the history of the EA to know why this should be, I'd be very interested if anybody has any ideas.

@VladmirsPoutine

Well SmokedDuck we have our very own Kemi Badenoch - the wonderful thing about getting Black people to repeat back to Black people that racism doesn't exist or some variation thereof is that it means nobody has to do anything about it. It's also an excellent hustle for Black and minority people - go against the 'acceptable' discourse and before you know it you'll get TV talking gigs, book deals, columns... I hope I'm never that broke but it's very lucrative I notice.

Do you honestly think that black people who disagree with particular perspective about how racism works are all doing so in order to make money?

What are the implications of a statement like that? All honest black people think the same way?

I think it's a lot more likely that like any group you have a fair divergence of views.

But your post is interesting in that it touches on something I've heard Adolph Reed say more than once. (And while you might choose to dismiss him as a guy just looking to be rich and famous, I think a political science professor and socialist campaigner who grew up as a black man in the Jim Crow South might be allowed to speak on his own terms, though he's be embarrassed I suspect that I feel the need to say that.)

Briefly, what he has suggested is that the reason there is an antracist activist class that all say much the same thing and are accepted as the representatives of all black people comes down to two things. One being that this is a group who is mostly middle class, and their interests coincide with the middle class globalist interests of the current Democrat Party, which does not include challenging the nature of wealth disparity in a real way. By centring identity politics the elite class can claim to be after racial justice without challenging the basic economic model, and also preventing any kind of united action from the working classes - so presenting these activist as representative leaders is very advantageous to them.

The second one being the problem that often rears its head among professional activists, it becomes a career path and that results in protectionism.

But then presumably he's just looking to make a quick buck.

That’s really interesting about the equality act. I’d also like to know why that part hasn’t been brought into use, as it seems an important element of the act.

Wow, didn't know that LangclegsInSpace, that's really interesting.

There are huge similarities
I would echo others and say I don't see huge similarities between the USA and the UK either. According to Wikipedia, the UK is:
87.1% White
7.0% Asian
3.0% Black
2.0% Mixed
0.9% Other

The USA is:
76.3% White - which appears to include Hispanic and Latino
13.4% Black
5.9% Asian
2.8% Multiracial
1.3% Native American
0.2% Pacific Islander

By ethnicity: 81.5% Non-Hispanic or Latino
18.5% Hispanic or Latino

Other differences: gun ownership, policing, schooling, the funding of schools in different majority white and majority black areas, history of segregation, slavery, immigration, their legacy and how this impacts current systems and dialogues around these, current immigration patterns, costs of higher education, costs of healthcare, political systems, second languages spoken, religious observance and influence, anti-socialist sentiment, laws, the importance of sports scholarships for poor POC in order to get into college and this legacy, the concept of WASPS, the vast size of the country, the importance of owning a car, the small number of people who have passports and travel abroad, the insular nature of the media, reliance on antidepressants and a basic 'get what you as for from the doctor' system of healthcare (if you can afford it), different maternity rights, greater stigma around interracial relationships, ghettos, nationalism, importance stressed on good service (which I see as a throwback to slavery and thus the 'Karen' memes from entitled white women treating staff as slaves), the list goes on.
It might not be at first obvious how these many factors relate to race issues, but they intertwine in so many complicated ways. The USA is an extremely different culture to the UK.

I found a couple of things -

In the 'Plan For Growth' 2011, the coalition government said they would be 'scrapping plans for regulations that would have cost businesses over £350 million a year, including stripping back proposed regulation on dual discrimination and third party harassment from the Equalities Act 2010'

The aim of this was 'To make the UK one of the best places in Europe to start, finance and grow a business' ()

Later in the document they say they 'will not bring forward Equality Act dual discrimination rules that would have cost business £3 million per year'

www.gov.uk/government/publications/plan-for-growth--5

Then in 2012 Theresa May, as Minister for Women and Equalities, made a written statement on the outcome of the 'Equalities red tape challenge' in which she said the government would 'delay commencement of the dual discrimination provisions in the Equality Act 2010'

www.gov.uk/government/speeches/equalities-red-tape-challenge-and-reform-of-the-equality-and-human-rights-commission-outcome

So that's confusing - is it delayed or scrapped?

It's curious that with so much talk about intersectionality, nobody's talking about this. If there are any campaigns to have S14 brought into force I would be happy to add my support.

“ One being that this is a group who is mostly middle class, and their interests coincide with the middle class globalist interests of the current Democrat Party, which does not include challenging the nature of wealth disparity in a real way. By centring identity politics the elite class can claim to be after racial justice without challenging the basic economic model, and also preventing any kind of united action from the working classes - so presenting these activist as representative leaders is very advantageous to them.”

Of course. And that’s the argument made about white feminism too. Just replace racism with sexism 😊

“ If there are any campaigns to have S14 brought into force I would be happy to add my support.”
👍🏼

Do you know of any campaigns OP?

No, maybe some else more knowledgeable will chip in 😊

Sorry, I thought you were knowledgeable about intersectionality. You've talked about it a lot on this thread.

I am not even white and I dont believe in this idea of white feminism. Well ok I'm part white, but every white woman I met who was also a radfem, won me over with their ideas and talk. I do not feel like radfeminism comes with racism, if anything they are more educated about injustice in general. More so than the average uneducated person, who prefers to stay ignorant.

I swear to god it just seems like it someone's intention, somewhere, to turn women AGAINST each other and start petty infighting. The sexism we face is universal. Stalking and serial killing.. rape and misogyny are experienced by everyone.

@LangClegsInSpace

Sorry, I thought you were knowledgeable about intersectionality. You've talked about it a lot on this thread.

I am quite experienced about intersectionality, having lived it all my life 😊

I just don’t know the latest on the campaign you referred to.

@Sociallydistancedcocktails

“ One being that this is a group who is mostly middle class, and their interests coincide with the middle class globalist interests of the current Democrat Party, which does not include challenging the nature of wealth disparity in a real way. By centring identity politics the elite class can claim to be after racial justice without challenging the basic economic model, and also preventing any kind of united action from the working classes - so presenting these activist as representative leaders is very advantageous to them.”

Of course. And that’s the argument made about white feminism too. Just replace racism with sexism 😊

Indeed it is in some ways similar, and if you take that argument seriously, as we were discussing at the beginning of the thread, it's pretty silly to call it white feminism, because that isn't what is really going on at all. It's not to do with being white, it's to do with a change of class interests.

Calling it white feminism obscures that and alienates quite a few women who are negatively affected by that kind of class representation but are themselves white. It seems to be used because calling something "white" allows the person using the term to discredit the target as being racist.