‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

It's a tricky one. Yes I think that people will tend to focus on their own issues, and if most prominent feminists are middle-class white women, then the kind of issues that get public airtime will reflect that. On the other hand, I feel that 'white feminist' is being used to shut people down and is unproductive and divisive. It also introduces a nasty undertone of race when race might not be relevant.

To an extent, however I've seen white activists accuse black feminists of 'white feminism' on twitter more than once. Its far more often used as a quick 'gotcha' to try belittle and dismiss women, than it is to raise any real issues.
It's one of those things imo that has lost a huge amount of meaning in common usage, similar to intersectionality which is now frequently used very differently (and often in complete opposition) to Crenshawe's original meaning.

This is an excellent article on it: www.feministcurrent.com/2017/07/26/white-feminism-thing-gender-identity-ideology-epitomizes/

Agree with NotTerfNorCis.

I'm sure it's a meaningful concept in certain contexts. Lots of the stuff we see is potentially useful in a controlled environment.

But in the wild it appears to just be just another stick to beat non-compliant women with, wielded by the Woke.

You may as just call women "Karens" or "feminazis".

Bustle is awful, contrived
corporate wank founded by an irritating sexist man. Not a feminist publication.

www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2013/09/17/why-bustle-com-doesnt-work-for-women/

Jane Clare Jones skewered the "white feminism" thing a bit in The Annals of the TERF Wars.

She's also written about it more seriously, but I'd have to find it.

“ a nasty undertone of race when race might not be relevant.”

Why is it nasty and what makes it unpalatable?

Also how does one decide whether it is relevant or not? Isn’t that the point of intersectionality?

I'm sure race affects women's lives and experiences, of course it does. Crenshaw's points on intersectionality are useful and worth considering.

But I'd like to also note 'US feminism' has very different concerns to feminism from elsewhere, and I think it would be great to hear more from UK women on the topic.

Why is it nasty and what makes it unpalatable?

Calling someone racist with no basis just to win a debate is nasty.

That list is so generic it could be about anything really. It is pure clickbait.

The RAQUEL ROSARIO SANCHEZ article is much more interesting and useful.

Not sure I understand what you are saying @NecessaryScene1

Are you saying discussions on intersectionality have no basis?

I think it's another stick to beat women with and put them back in their place. Plus it suits patriarchal societies to set women against each other. Way more needs to be done to support black women and force society to acknowledge the many ways in which they are discriminated against. However, writing off the concerns of white women as white feminism is a means by which to ignore those concerns and feel better about the status quo. Nothing changes if progressives buy into the notion that white feminists have won some kind of prize in the feminism race, misogyny and discrimination affect all women and we should be conscious of the intersections with race and socio-economic status, but it's a trap to imagine everything is sorted for white women.

The thing is, "second-wave" feminists were in fact already debating this (and there were many black feminist writers in the debate such as bell hooks, Angela Davies, Audre Lorde) throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s. In their writings the idea of "intersectionality" was already there, coming out of a Marxist view of the intersections of structural class oppression, but it was kind of an obvious point to be made on the way to more radical social change.

Only later was the term "intersectionality" extricated from this and made to float around freely as a kind of virtue signal in itself. It's become a way of saying "I'm one up on all the old white feminists who didn't think about women of colour and working class women", but the thing is, they did, and if you read them you can see they did. But they also advocated radical changes to education, work, society and consumerism as a result. These don't fit with the individualism and market-based ideals of current identity politics such as liberal feminism or transactivism; so what has happened is that "intersectionality" now just floats around as a buzzword, a virtue signal where you say it or spot it and your job is done. It's also a convenient way to avoid reading all the work of women who wrote about this in the past because you can claim they are not "intersectional" enough (even though, if you do read them, you can see for yourself that the opposite is true). However, you might then be forced to acknowledge that the black and working class and lesbian women who were writing in the 70s and 80s also weren't on board with porn culture, choice feminism, the beauty industry, and the exploitation of poor women by rich women as a natural order of things.

Instead it's a lot easier to say things like "my feminism is intersectional" without having to confront the likelihood that you'll have to propose any actual changes in the world. It's also a lot easier to pretend that every feminist before approximately 2000 was a rich white woman writing "white feminism" than actually go back and read them and actually think about what they are saying.

I note that just about any strand of thought propagated by men doesn't get the same treatment. "I don't want to read that white Marxism?" Nope. "White ecology"? Nope. It's pretty much only feminism that gets the put down that conveniently excuses people from actually reading it.

Are you saying discussions on intersectionality have no basis?

No, it's just that people seem to just randomly say things like being able to tell that men aren't women is "white feminism". That sort of use as a rhetorical tool seems to be dominant in public discourse, rather than any sort of real "intersectionalism" discussion.

I guess the core nugget of that is that a "transwoman" is both a "woman" and "trans" and hence subject to the same "intersectional" issues as someone who is a "woman" and "black". So being against "trans rights" is "white feminism".

Race is being used as a battering ram for male rights, when there's nothing about race in the actual things being argued about.

Hence black women being accused of white feminism.

n the other hand, I feel that 'white feminist' is being used to shut people down and is unproductive and divisive.

What's your thoughts on this point, OP? You seem to be focussing on some things people have said and not others.

Why is it nasty and what makes it unpalatable?

Pretty sure I saw Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie being called a white feminist for saying 'transwomen are transwomen'.

Basically it's used to shut people up, and as has already been said, it's even used by white activists against black feminists.

Are prostitutes in Holbeck in possession of white privilege, do they need to check themselves?

"Testimony from survivors and studiess_ of women and girls in prostitution consistently show that many, often as many as a third, were in local authority care as children; about half started in prostitution before they were 18, or when they were homeless; about half were coerced into it by someone; and about three quarters had been abused as children."

nordicmodelnow.org/2017/07/04/whats-wrong-with-prostitution/

I’m Indian origin and yes I do believe white feminism exists. For example white feminism believe in the right to work, but only if you do it like a white person. If you need to care for extended family / spend 2 hours a day to make your hair presentable / are raised to be softly spoken and centre your working and personal life around family you’re told you have no ambition and aren’t working hard enough.

All of that is on top of the double discrimination on account of my skin colour and sex which white women wouldn’t understand, even if they lived in non-white countries because it is really negative discrimination. I routinely get ignored by white men and women in favour of my husband despite being dressed in a similarly western way.

On the other hand, I feel that 'white feminist' is being used to shut people down and is unproductive and divisive. It also introduces a nasty undertone of race when race might not be relevant.

I agree. I heard a younger female colleague in an entirely disparaging way. She spat the term out with disgust like you would use “racist”.

Instead it's a lot easier to say things like "my feminism is intersectional" without having to confront the likelihood that you'll have to propose any actual changes in the world. It's also a lot easier to pretend that every feminist before approximately 2000 was a rich white woman writing "white feminism" than actually go back and read them and actually think about what they are saying.

I note that just about any strand of thought propagated by men doesn't get the same treatment. "I don't want to read that white Marxism?" Nope. "White ecology"? Nope. It's pretty much only feminism that gets the put down that conveniently excuses people from actually reading it.

This.

cakedays excellent post. When the "intersectional" buzzword started floating round, I was genuinely baffled as to what I was missing. I studied feminist theory in college in the early 90s and immersed myself in writing by women of many different backgrounds in terms of class, race, sexuality, politics and historical eras. It was a very broad church indeed as you'd expect. But the new "intersectional" feminists were telling me that in fact what I'd studied was a load of old Karens and that their shiny new feminism was better. So I hadnt actually missed anything - they were talking shite and to add insult to injury their new feminism included males!

Here's an online full text link to bell hooks, feminist theory: from margin to center, a 1984 classic of second wave feminism, written by an African-American woman. It's well worth a read, and was a huge influence on feminist writing by white and black women of the 80s and 90s -- including on Crenshaw. You can see all of this is already part of feminist history, but it's very convenient to ignore that, because the kind of revolutionary changes to capitalism it demands don't fit so well with the politics of the liberal marketplace.

funceji.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/bell_hooks_feminist_theory_from_margin_to_centebookzz-org_.pdf

Cakedays makes some very good points.

It's another way to divide and cause friction amongst women. I also find the whole thing very demeaning.

I had a massive online debate (argument) with a group of intersectional feminists who insisted that I had internalised racism because they check their white privilege and I said don't bother, I'm fine. I don't need anyone to feel bad about accident of birth and I certainly don't need anyone to patronise and feel sorry for me because I am not white. Just fuck off. I am not any less than other women, I'm equal to them. Most of the problems we face are the same. There are, of course, extra issues for BAME women and, within groups in that category too, but we share more issues than not.

It's like that other thread about Dr Cathyrn Edwards that was taken down and someone brought race into it and I was thinking wtf, can't we just celebrate a woman for once?

@irishfeminist

cakedays excellent post. When the "intersectional" buzzword started floating round, I was genuinely baffled as to what I was missing. I studied feminist theory in college in the early 90s and immersed myself in writing by women of many different backgrounds in terms of class, race, sexuality, politics and historical eras. It was a very broad church indeed as you'd expect. But the new "intersectional" feminists were telling me that in fact what I'd studied was a load of old Karens and that their shiny new feminism was better. So I hadnt actually missed anything - they were talking shite and to add insult to injury their new feminism included males!

Yes exactly! I have to say I have no time at all for being lectured about "white feminism" by gen Zs who haven't read a word of any of it. I was always taught at university that you informed yourself thoroughly about a subject by actually reading some books before you started making pronouncements on it. At the moment people seem to think that a couple of Guardian articles, a blog or two and a quick check of urban dictionary constitute genuine research on a subject and then they can spout off at will.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

n the other hand, I feel that 'white feminist' is being used to shut people down and is unproductive and divisive.

What's your thoughts on this point, OP? You seem to be focussing on some things people have said and not others.

I didn’t respond because I didn’t understand the point - who is being shut down and how?

And about being divisive, yes. That’s the point. There are divisions and structural inequalities that impact people differently.

Is it unproductive? Well yes, if you are not impacted or if you benefit from those