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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton

999 replies

Mollyollydolly · 25/04/2021 13:21

Saw this on twitter and thought it deserved a thread to itself.

As Jason Braler (employment lawyer) says on twitter "It's more a thesis than a traditional skeleton, but it certainly drives home the points from every conceivable angle.
It may also be the only ever EAT skeleton to have 4 references to Orwell"

hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Datun · 27/04/2021 19:13

I, too, am wondering whether the EHRC are being propelled by Ann Sinnott's upcoming case.

My understanding is that it is pivotal.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/04/2021 19:22

@Datun

I, too, am wondering whether the EHRC are being propelled by Ann Sinnott's upcoming case.

My understanding is that it is pivotal.

And I think may require some additional digging...
yourhairiswinterfire · 27/04/2021 19:25

Yes, lots of reverse ferreting now. ''No one's ever said you can actually change your sex''. Exactly like the ''born in the wrong body'' reverse ferret.

Strange then, that Maya lost her job and has been relentlessly abused for tweeting about it if everyone is in agreement with her.

If no one is denying sex and everyone knows you can't literally change your sex, it's also strange that JKR had months of abuse for tweeting:

If sex isn’t real, there’s no same-sex attraction. If sex isn’t real, the lived reality of women globally is erased. I know and love trans people, but erasing the concept of sex removes the ability of many to meaningfully discuss their lives. It isn’t hate to speak the truth.

What the hell were people objecting to then? 🤔

ChloeCrocodile · 27/04/2021 19:28

Just catching up, and want to say thank you to contributors for the interesting analysis. Reading the arguments made today (particularly the intervention by EHRC) make it very difficult to see how maya could lose this case. But, then again, I thought that last time so I’m trying not to be too hopeful.

littlbrowndog · 27/04/2021 19:33

Now we have #sexmatters trending

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 27/04/2021 19:34

@bellinisurge

The number of tweets I've seen saying "well, of course, we (TRAs) know that sex is immutable. No one ever said it wasn't ". They can see which way the wind is blowing. Although this means they will try and get tbe law changed to match the nonsense they have created about self ID. It ain't over.
Agreed. And mere days ago, when some people responded with horror to a DV refuge abiding by single-sex exemptions. When they actually read the EA2010 and discovered that the exemptions were lawful, they reacted with the pronouncement that the EA2010 must be amended to remove that exemption:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4227395-Wight-DASH?messages=100&pg=1#prettyPhoto/1/

Sophoclesthefox · 27/04/2021 19:35

If no one ever said that you can actually change sex, then we were always at war with Eastasia, too. It’s this fundamental dishonesty and willingness to pivot to whatever declaration best serves the interest of the moment that is the worst aspect of this movement.

R0wantrees · 27/04/2021 19:39

The Critic By Nathan Williams
27 April, 2021

'Sex deniers are the new flat earthers
Those who deny biological sex are dangerous and disingenuous; it’s time the rest of us stood up to them'
concludes:
Without the truth on their side, the sex denialists’ only option is to shut down discussion. Anyone who dares question the ideology faces insults, abuse and even violence. It’s an approach that has proven highly successful. Despite this being an issue of great public interest, very few scientists or science journalists have made any attempt to communicate what the science says. When I approached the Science Media Centre, which prides itself on being able to find scientists to talk on even the most controversial subjects, they said they were unable to provide a single expert. Places that once championed rationality and evidence like the Freethought Blog now explicitly ban those who dare present views on the existence of biological sex that they consider heretical.

When a biologist tweeted that stating biological facts is not bigotry, she was attacked by the very body you might expect to support her — The Royal Society of Biology — which labelled her comments as “transphobia”. Perhaps there was some detail of the science she got wrong — in which case you would expect this learned society to point out the error. But despite numerous attempts to find out what was incorrect about her statements, they have refused to answer. Even at its most censorious — the Catholic Church would tell blasphemers what their crime was. The modern witch-burners won’t even do that — they will rarely even discuss their claims with anyone who does not already share their beliefs.

Even one of the world’s best-known biologists isn’t safe. Prof. Richard Dawkins recently tweeted to ask whether there was a difference between self-identifying your race and self-identifying your sex/gender. This was the final straw for the American Humanist Association which duly stripped him of a 25-year-old lifetime award — something they’d only done once before when a recipient was accused of serious sexual harassment. Humanism is supposed to stand for rationality and freedom of thought, but for the AHA it seems heresy is still a crime punishable by excommunication. These are far from isolated examples. Many academics, particularly women, have faced threats and harassment merely for daring to talk about biological sex. There is no clearer demonstration that sex denialists are charlatans; their only weapons are creating fear and confusion. It’s time the rest of us stood up to them."
thecritic.co.uk/sex-deniers-are-the-new-flat-earthers/

UppityPuppity · 27/04/2021 19:39

Well, the bakers won their case in the Supreme Court, setting a clear precedent. That could be the bit you are forgetting. A lot of gay people actually agreed with the idea that someone shouldn’t be compelled to endorse a message they don’t agree with. I don’t agree with the bakers but I don’t think people should be forced to say stuff they don’t want to.

I believe the case rested on the fact that they were willing to bake the cake - just not write something on it that they didn’t believe. I think this is a fair compromise. If they had refused to make the cake based on the sexuality of the customer - that would be a very different thing.

You mean like making trans kids use toilets that match the sex they were assigned at birth, even though it increases their risk of sexual assault?

Yes - interested in Shizuku’s views on the importance of ensuring safety, privacy and dignity for girls - irrespective of how they identify. Or is it that just girls never seem to be a priority human.

littlbrowndog · 27/04/2021 19:41

Ann

Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton
BeReet · 27/04/2021 19:41

@Sophoclesthefox

If no one ever said that you can actually change sex, then we were always at war with Eastasia, too. It’s this fundamental dishonesty and willingness to pivot to whatever declaration best serves the interest of the moment that is the worst aspect of this movement.
Luckily, I believe lots of people have lots of evidence/screenshots/receipts should reverse ferreting become an epidemic.
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/04/2021 19:42

Who's intervening against Maya tomorrow?

Sophoclesthefox · 27/04/2021 19:49

Luckily, I believe lots of people have lots of evidence/screenshots/receipts should reverse ferreting become an epidemic

The internet, and MN FWR never forget Grin

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/04/2021 19:52

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Who's intervening against Maya tomorrow?
I just looked for myself Blush Apparently no-one is?

I didn't realise though that the EHRC had been ordered to intervene...

Fieldoftheclothofgold · 27/04/2021 19:56

Ordered by the court to come and state their understanding of the law? Or someone else?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/04/2021 19:59

The Equality and Human Rights Commission is intervening to comment on the law and legal approach taken by the tribunal, following an order made by the President of the Employment Appeal Tribunal on 21 April 2021

hiyamaya.net/employment-appeal/

So only a few days to decide which way they were going to jump, I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall Grin

Fieldoftheclothofgold · 27/04/2021 20:00

They knew the law perfectly well. Glad they were ordered to explain it.

JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 27/04/2021 20:04

Every day's a school day ...

Chrysanthemum5 · 27/04/2021 20:04

It's disappointing that they had to be compelled to come along and support the law

RedDogsBeg · 27/04/2021 20:08

@R0wantrees

A Safeguarding informed solution to children being sexually assaulted in single sex school toilets/changing rooms is not to make the toilets/changing rooms mixed sex.
Quite.

It's always very illuminating to see the thought processes of the ideologist side.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 27/04/2021 20:10

I look upon the digging and seed-sowing as paying dividends for the future (the Ann Sinnott patch is in need of further attention) but it's fair mounting up this year.

I am anticipating that whatever the outcome of Maya's case, it's not infeasible that someone/some organisation will take this to the Appeal Court and the whole matter might end up in the Supreme Court.

RedDogsBeg · 27/04/2021 20:19

How about deliberately misgendering a colleague?

Firstly, Shizuku, Maya has never deliberately misgendered a colleague, or indeed anyone else.

Secondly, there is no such thing as misgendering in the UK. No Statute, Law or anything else, nothing, irrespective of what Twitter would have you believe.

JoanOgden · 27/04/2021 20:21

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

I look upon the digging and seed-sowing as paying dividends for the future (the Ann Sinnott patch is in need of further attention) but it's fair mounting up this year.

I am anticipating that whatever the outcome of Maya's case, it's not infeasible that someone/some organisation will take this to the Appeal Court and the whole matter might end up in the Supreme Court.

From the skeleton and today's evidence, the case for overturning the verdict looks very strong. I think it will be hard to make a case to appeal to a higher court (and I doubt Maya's former employer would try this. I am pretty sure they are thoroughly regretting getting rid of her as they did).
CardinalLolzy · 27/04/2021 20:32

I'm reserving judgement... It looked quite positive last time based on the judge's comments then the bizarre ruling that seemed to fly in the face of it the next day.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 27/04/2021 20:38

From the skeleton and today's evidence, the case for overturning the verdict looks very strong. I think it will be hard to make a case to appeal to a higher court (and I doubt Maya's former employer would try this.

I have form for managing my expectations. My protective reactions are no reflection upon the merits of Maya's case nor the excellence of her team and the other interventions.

(I realise that this is just a stage in MF's overall case against CGD - the next determination might well be to establish that this was part of the nibbling away at and then rescinding of a contract.)