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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton

999 replies

Mollyollydolly · 25/04/2021 13:21

Saw this on twitter and thought it deserved a thread to itself.

As Jason Braler (employment lawyer) says on twitter "It's more a thesis than a traditional skeleton, but it certainly drives home the points from every conceivable angle.
It may also be the only ever EAT skeleton to have 4 references to Orwell"

hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
CardinalLolzy · 27/04/2021 18:27

I find the assumption that safeguarding can only be about sexual abuse both ignorant and troubling. Luckily we have people on here who are well-versed in safeguarding principles so we don't need to make embarrassingly ignorant assumptions.

R0wantrees · 27/04/2021 18:30

I find the assumption that safeguarding can only be about sexual abuse both ignorant and troubling. Luckily we have people on here who are well-versed in safeguarding principles so we don't need to make embarrassingly ignorant assumptions.

This ^^

Unsure33 · 27/04/2021 18:32

@Sophoclesthefox

Thank you for that .

So when the case was originally bought they could have said quite clearly there was another reason and then the case would have failed I assume . So in other words it does not appear to have been denied that that was the reason . A bit like SM post allegedly bringing a company into disrepute.

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 18:34

@Fieldoftheclothofgold

As a courtesy? That sounds rather coercive - be compliant or I will misgender you.

I don’t think it does. It means she’ll use preferred pronouns to be polite, but she reserves the right to use sex-based pronouns when she needs to discuss biological sex rather than gender roles.

"Why are some adults determined to undermine safeguarding of children?"

You mean like making trans kids use toilets that match the sex they were assigned at birth, even though it increases their risk of sexual assault?

edition.cnn.com/2019/05/06/health/trans-teens-bathroom-policies-sexual-assault-study/index.html

"Researchers analyzed data from 3,673 adolescents in the LGBTQ Teen Study, an anonymous web-based survey of US kids ages 13 to 17. Students who reported being told by teachers or staff that they could not use restrooms or locker rooms consistent with their sexual identity at school were classified as having "restrictive access. Just over 1 out of every 4 students in the study, or 25.9%, reported being a victim of sexual assault in the past 12 months. Transgender and gender-nonbinary teens who were subject to restroom or locker room restrictions had an even higher prevalence of sexual assault, at 36%, according to the findings, published Monday in the journal Pediatrics. "

Pota2 · 27/04/2021 18:39

I thought I read that the Employment Judge was promoted after the case. What happens now? The ENRC says he got things wrong and was biassed. Will there be some kind of enquiry?

No. I think he got it wrong but nowhere near to the extent that he’s guilty of misconduct. Every case that is successfully appealed involves one judge disagreeing with the decision of another one.

In fact, Judge Tayler did us all a favour if this appeal is successful. Had he found in favour of Maya, the case would not be binding on other tribunal decisions. A decision from the EAT will be and will serve as a strong reminder to any employers who want to try any nonsense about enforcing pronouns or sacking women with GC views.

Mollyollydolly · 27/04/2021 18:40

I'm not sure what happens next. I assume if Maya wins she can then take her employer to court for discrimination. Happy to be corrected if wrong. I'm very interested to see what happens with Ann Sinnott's case too and what the implications are.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 27/04/2021 18:42

A Safeguarding informed solution to children being sexually assaulted in single sex school toilets/changing rooms is not to make the toilets/changing rooms mixed sex.

Scepticaltank · 27/04/2021 18:42

[quote Unsure33]@Sophoclesthefox

Thank you for that .

So when the case was originally bought they could have said quite clearly there was another reason and then the case would have failed I assume . So in other words it does not appear to have been denied that that was the reason . A bit like SM post allegedly bringing a company into disrepute.[/quote]
They could not have done because there are extensive email conversations with Maya and people in the USA about it.
Her boss is supposed to appear tomorrow. He (or another boss) at first backed her job offer then pulled out. It seems they thought she had no employment rights because of her employment status and so could do what they liked.

Maya has published all this last case submission online.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 27/04/2021 18:43

IIRC Maya’s case also has implications for the Girl Guiding case.

Pota2 · 27/04/2021 18:44

This will be much like that ruling in favour of the weirdos who wouldn’t bake a cake for two gay people. Lots of crying and screaming and shouting for years but.. did it do anything useful for them and their cause when they eventually won? Most people just thought the bakers were a pair of total wankers. Didn’t change a thing unless I’m forgetting something.

Well, the bakers won their case in the Supreme Court, setting a clear precedent. That could be the bit you are forgetting. A lot of gay people actually agreed with the idea that someone shouldn’t be compelled to endorse a message they don’t agree with. I don’t agree with the bakers but I don’t think people should be forced to say stuff they don’t want to.

NecessaryScene1 · 27/04/2021 18:45

I assume if Maya wins she can then take her employer to court for discrimination.

I believe that this hearing is part of that overall process, so it's effectively underway. These hearings are preliminary to that.

Scepticaltank · 27/04/2021 18:45

And yes, her employers have confirmed she didn't misgender or harass anyone, they simply found it to be an unpopular opinion!

R0wantrees · 27/04/2021 18:45

In fact, Judge Tayler did us all a favour if this appeal is successful. Had he found in favour of Maya, the case would not be binding on other tribunal decisions. A decision from the EAT will be and will serve as a strong reminder to any employers who want to try any nonsense about enforcing pronouns or sacking women with GC views.

Awful as it has been for Maya Forstater, the shocking nature of the first finding and interim period have raised awareness and allowed for a very thorough legal challenge.

Gin
HPFA · 27/04/2021 18:49

@yourhairiswinterfire

They gave an example that if an atheist made constant comments to a religious individual about 'seeing fairy unicorns' then that might be harrasment.

Yes, they clearly stated the difference between discussing beliefs in a respectful way and harassing someone.

Relevent tweets:

Sex Matters
@SexMattersOrg

Last general proposition is that even if balancing were required, it's not the case that any reference to a trans person's biological sex necessarily amounts to an interference with their rights.

C's views are entirely mainstream and not inherently bigoted. Indeed, almost universal except in a very narrow slice of society.

Thinking about the way these kinds of conflicts play out. Take an example a bit removed from this case.

I'm a gay atheist. Suppose I have a colleague who thinks being gay is sinful. I find his belief very offensive. He might find my belief that his religion is little more than a fairy-tale offensive.

How does that work in the workplace? If every time he sees me he says I'm an abomination, or I keep asking him if he's seen unicorns recently, that's harassment.

If we're academics debating the existence of god or sexual morality, we must be entitled to refer to each other's individual protected characteristics even if the other person is upset.

That's particular case of a general rule that it is permissible to refer to beliefs where it is relevant.

People can't be expected to be too squeamish about what they talk about at work. So if the workplace is one where people do discuss controversial issues, that won't necessarily amount to discrimination or harassment.

May be harassment depending on the particular circumstances. You can't use a one size fits all rule.

So if someone with C's views deliberately uses pronouns other than those preferred by a trans colleague, that may amount to harassment. But not harassment if done respectfully in the context of a proper discussion.

This was a very good example. This issue seems to be the only one where you're not just required to respect other people's beliefs but also to pretend to believe things you don't.

An atheist wouldn't be allowed to discriminate against a Catholic (not suggesting they would want to) but in a discussion about religion at work they could quite freely talk about their lack of belief without being accused of being "Catholicphobes"

PronounssheRa · 27/04/2021 18:49

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

IIRC Maya’s case also has implications for the Girl Guiding case.
Possibly Allison Baileys case as well
StellaAndCrow · 27/04/2021 18:50

@AnneofScreamFables

Very interesting about the intervention of the EHRC. As I recall, in the 'Asher cake case' (went to the Supreme Court - brief summary - you cannot be compelled to say (or write on a cake) something you do not believe, and this is different from the rights of individuals under the equality act not to be discriminated against - the NI equivalent of the EHRC was criticised for not being as helpful to the bakers as to the customer (extract from the decision below).

Mr Lee made arrangements with another cake provider for a similar cake which he was able to take with him to the party on 17 May. He complained to the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland (“the ECNI”) about the cancellation of his order. The ECNI have supported him in bringing this claim for direct and indirect discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation, religious belief or political opinion.
The Court of Appeal expressed some concern that the correspondence between the ECNI and the bakery may have created the impression that the ECNI was not interested in assisting members of the faith community when they found themselves
in difficulties as a result of their deeply held religious beliefs (para 106). It is obviously necessary for a body such as the ECNI to offer its services to all people who may need them because of a protected characteristic and not to give the impression of favouring one such characteristic over others.

Belatedly - thank you Anne, I think that is key, that such a body can't be (seen to) be favouring one protected characteristic over others.
Sophoclesthefox · 27/04/2021 18:55

Yes, and that’s why it’s so powerful to see the EHRC stating that there isn’t a hierarchy of protected characteristics, because they have previously seemed sympathetic that that unsubstantiated view.

Datun · 27/04/2021 18:56

Just catching up.

The sulking and tantruming versus the intelligent and informed viewpoints is stark.

CardinalLolzy · 27/04/2021 18:58

So what happens tomorrow - presumably we are moving on to the other side? Do they need to make many more arguments specific to the appeal or just repeat what their initial arguments were?

Letsgetreadytocrumble · 27/04/2021 18:59

You mean like making trans kids use toilets that match the sex they were assigned at birth, even though it increases their risk of sexual assault?

So what are your proposals to solve this problem, that don't involve making young girls have to be in vulnerable places with people of the opposite sex, because clearly that is not fair on the girls?

Letsgetreadytocrumble · 27/04/2021 19:03

This will be much like that ruling in favour of the weirdos who wouldn’t bake a cake for two gay people. Lots of crying and screaming and shouting for years but.. did it do anything useful for them and their cause when they eventually won? Most people just thought the bakers were a pair of total wankers. Didn’t change a thing unless I’m forgetting something.

It was important ruling setting a precedent about not being forced into doing something you don't want to do.

I didn't agree with the bakers viewpoint, but I also didn't think that they should have been taken to court for their refusal. I also thought the gay couple didn't exactly cover themselves in glory by selecting that particular bakery for their cake.....

Datun · 27/04/2021 19:05

@R0wantrees

A Safeguarding informed solution to children being sexually assaulted in single sex school toilets/changing rooms is not to make the toilets/changing rooms mixed sex.
Quite.

Surprised it even needs saying.

Unsure33 · 27/04/2021 19:09

@R0wantrees

Very true . The more awareness the better .

It is indeed a very important case .

AnneofScreamFables · 27/04/2021 19:10

The good thing about this appeal, is that I think there has to be a ruling, because Maya lost at the First Tier. So even if (like with the census) the other side suddenly decide not to contest this particular point (because this is only part of the case) there still needs to be a judgement to rule in favour of Maya. And because this is a higher court, it sets a (limited) precedent. I say limited because the Court of Appeal and Supreme Courts are higher still.

Not wanting to jinx - of course we need to wait and see what tomorrow brings, and maybe wait even longer for the judgement...

bellinisurge · 27/04/2021 19:12

The number of tweets I've seen saying "well, of course, we (TRAs) know that sex is immutable. No one ever said it wasn't ". They can see which way the wind is blowing. Although this means they will try and get tbe law changed to match the nonsense they have created about self ID. It ain't over.