Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton

[Mollyollydolly]

Saw this on twitter and thought it deserved a thread to itself.

As Jason Braler (employment lawyer) says on twitter "It's more a thesis than a traditional skeleton, but it certainly drives home the points from every conceivable angle.
It may also be the only ever EAT skeleton to have 4 references to Orwell"

hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf

@AnneofScreamFables

The nature of belief is generally that a belief is something that is not (yet) held to be a fact (IMO).

Which is why this case is so weird because 'sex is immutable' is a fact. You can believe in facts, you can believe in something that cannot be proven to be true either way. It would be very interesting to see whether a belief in something that is objectively untrue would be protected.

Eg - is flat-earthism worthy of belief in a democratic society?

Yes, this is why I was so surprised they went with the defense of belief in the first case. I dont think we should have to defend a 'belief' in widely accepted material facts.

Eg - is flat-earthism worthy of belief in a democratic society?

I don't see why it shouldn't be.

If it interfered with your job though, eg as an airline pilot or working to design spacecraft, then you would presumably be able to be dismissed on the grounds of incompetence, but it wouldn't be for just holding the belief.

If you managed the cognitive dissonance of believing the earth was flat but using an "earth is round" model to do your work, you'd be fine.

I dont think we should have to defend a 'belief' in widely accepted material facts.

Beliefs in irrational things or false things are protected.

It would be ludicrous for that to be the case but to have beliefs in truth not be protected.

I hate to engage in pigeon chess, but when people say compelled speech will protect a small minority of very vulnerable people, its good to remember one of the people who complained about maya was Gregor Murray

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-48295000

Mayas crime, forgetting Gregor uses they/them.

I'm reading 'respect' in these examples as 'bemused tolerance as long as you don't teach off-syllabus / crash planes'.

How many trans activists are looking at how things are going today and wondering whether it would have been far better for Maya to win at first instance. As a result of her initial loss, today there are worms everywhere.

Sex Matters
@SexMattersOrg

In Elan-Cane and McConnell the courts have declined to extend recognition to gender ID because those are matters for Parliament.

Because in English law and in fact, biological sex remains a reality which affects how people are seen and interact with other people. Other people's perceptions are not simply to be written off.

C's beliefs are on all fours with English law. She believes that sex is fixed at birth and gender is something different - as does the law.

nauticant, the can has well and truly been opened by all these court cases.

its good to remember one of the people who complained about maya was Gregor Murray

^www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-48295000^

Mayas crime, forgetting Gregor uses they/them.

I've lost count how often I've seen this retweeted under the #istandformaya hashtag:

twitter.com/simonjedge/status/1386967296476909570

There will be a lot of dazzled people blinking in the sunlight.

Please for the love of Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the wee donkey don't let this thread be derailed. It is important, it matters, keep to the point of the case. Please everybody.

I'm saving this for future use. So on point.

Maya is incredibly brave. I’m really hoping sense will prevail.

Thank you for sharing

@Mollyollydolly

Please for the love of Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the wee donkey don't let this thread be derailed. It is important, it matters, keep to the point of the case. Please everybody.

😂😂😂

How long is the appeal likely to go for?

Maya said they wouldn’t get judgment for ages

Regarding the 'belief' angle, there was a thread about it at the time (since deleted IIRC) where Maya explained why that route had been taken. I might have saved some bits from it (but I don't have R0's organisation and filing skills) so even if I did, I may never find them. I will have a look once I'm back from the school run, though.

Thanks, @littlbrowndog.

@Mollyollydolly

Please for the love of Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the wee donkey don't let this thread be derailed. It is important, it matters, keep to the point of the case. Please everybody.

“We’ve been round the houses, Steve. Round the houses and down the bloody drains.”

Sex Matters
@SexMattersOrg

The effect of findings that C must be required to subordinate her use of language to the opposing view in this debate, and not holding the belief that gender ID determines sex is not even a protected lack of belief has the effect of state-mandated adherence to gender ID theory.

I read somewhere, might have been the Sex Matters Twitter page, that judgement could be 2 - 3 months?

The effect of findings that C must be required to subordinate her use of language to the opposing view in this debate, and not holding the belief that gender ID determines sex is not even a protected lack of belief has the effect of state-mandated adherence to gender ID theory.

It follows that if an employer requires employees to chant a creed daily that trans women are women, employees must comply and will not be protected by s.10 if subjected to detriment for refusing. That can't be right.

That is what's at stake here, totalitarian imposition of a creed.

Sex Matters
@SexMattersOrg

''It follows that if an employer requires employees to chant a creed daily that trans women are women, employees must comply and will not be protected by s.10 if subjected to detriment for refusing. That can't be right.''

--

''That concludes BCQC's submissions. Next: Karon Monaghan QC for the EHRC.''

Mollyollydolly
Hot on the Hastings truisms

If you managed the cognitive dissonance of believing the earth was flat but using an "earth is round" model to do your work, you'd be fine.

I met some Salt Lake City palaeontologists that managed to teach both creationalism and the fossil record - that involved some serious mental gymnastics.