Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton

[Mollyollydolly]

Saw this on twitter and thought it deserved a thread to itself.

As Jason Braler (employment lawyer) says on twitter "It's more a thesis than a traditional skeleton, but it certainly drives home the points from every conceivable angle.
It may also be the only ever EAT skeleton to have 4 references to Orwell"

hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf

@Fieldoftheclothofgold

So you don't think a trans woman should ever be compelled to define herself as male.

I don’t believe a transwoman should be compelled to speak against her beliefs. The question ‘What sex was recorded against your name on your birth certificate when you were born?’ might legitimately be asked to define sex. Nobody then has to answer. Making a false declaration is different.

What if she thinks the birth certificate is wrong and that stating what's on it would be to perpetuate an untruth? Should she be compelled to say what it says?

#Istandwithmaya trending in uk and Ireland

It's great.

It doesn't really matter what people believe

I believe I was incorrectly convicted, so I won't declare the points on my license won't wash when you discover it invalidated your insurance

What if she thinks the birth certificate is wrong and that stating what's on it would be to perpetuate an untruth? Should she be compelled to say what it says

I don’t think the transwoman should be compelled to say anything. We all have the right to silence. We also have the right to express our honest beliefs.

What if people think a birth certificate should be a legal record of material fact? Should they be compelled to lie? Should they be compelled to perjure themselves in court?

@Fieldoftheclothofgold

What if she thinks the birth certificate is wrong and that stating what's on it would be to perpetuate an untruth? Should she be compelled to say what it says

I don’t think the transwoman should be compelled to say anything. We all have the right to silence. We also have the right to express our honest beliefs.

I agree, within reason - there are some beliefs that should not be allowed to be expressed in some circumstances.

I agree, within reason - there are some beliefs that should not be allowed to be expressed in some circumstances.

And the law makes provision for that. But it doesn’t make provision to silence MF.

It's all getting a bit legalistic/ technical - hoping they summarise this bit. (The actual case going ahead right now that we're discussing)

@Thelnebriati

What if people think a birth certificate should be a legal record of material fact? Should they be compelled to lie? Should they be compelled to perjure themselves in court?

It's a record of your genital configuration which doesn't always correlate with sex.

This is about Maya Forstater and freedom of belief and conscience in a democratic society subject to protections.

Let's not head off down the same old blind alleys of gender identity ideology. This is a critically important case.

It's all getting a bit legalistic/ technical - hoping they summarise this bit.

I expect there will be multiple summaries later.

Maya's case isn't about birth certificate admin.

"The Tribunal went off on the wrong tack here. It took it upon itself to carry out an evaluation of the belief according to a standard it developed—one of absolutism."

I think this is a salient point.

@littlbrowndog

#Istandwithmaya trending in uk and Ireland

🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽👏👏👏👏👏

It is interesting to see what people normally outside of the debate think.

Go Maya!

Go Maya!

You could say "my birth certificate recorded M or F."

But it can't be psychologically healthy to live your life based on an untruth. Until recently transpeople had no problem saying things like "I was born male but am much happier living as female and like it when people respect that." Many transpeople still do this. I had a conversation on Twitter with a transwoman who said she made absolutely sure all medical personnel knew her history and what drugs she was taking on the grounds of "I'd rather be outed than dead". That seemed to be much healthier than an exhausting effort to pretend that you never were what you were born as and expecting the world to conform.

Precisely none of this is about birth certificate admin, whatever claims are made to the contrary. The issues of freedom of speech and belief are profoundly important to everyone.

And... back to Maya

I found Sarah Peterson’s reply’s to Suzanne Moore on Twitter interesting:

My @news_RSE funded research project in Scotland has found that women suffer enormous abuse - on and offline and from friends as well as strangers - when they 'come out' as gender critical. Some have found themselves reported to employers.

On the other hand, women have reported the enormous feeling of sisterhood that comes from being part of what I am calling a women's cooperative coalition on this subject - which creates alliances beyond party lines.

*Sarah Pedersen (autocarrot strikes again 🙄)

@CardinalLolzy

Maya's case isn't about birth certificate admin.

"The Tribunal went off on the wrong tack here. It took it upon itself to carry out an evaluation of the belief according to a standard it developed—one of absolutism."

I think this is a salient point.

Absolutely - just read that tweet and thought 'now we're running on diesel '.

The nature of belief is generally that a belief is something that is not (yet) held to be a fact (IMO).

Which is why this case is so weird because 'sex is immutable' is a fact. You can believe in facts, you can believe in something that cannot be proven to be true either way. It would be very interesting to see whether a belief in something that is objectively untrue would be protected.

Eg - is flat-earthism worthy of belief in a democratic society?

@LostToucan

I found Sarah Peterson’s reply’s to Suzanne Moore on Twitter interesting:

My @news_RSE funded research project in Scotland has found that women suffer enormous abuse - on and offline and from friends as well as strangers - when they 'come out' as gender critical. Some have found themselves reported to employers.

On the other hand, women have reported the enormous feeling of sisterhood that comes from being part of what I am calling a women's cooperative coalition on this subject - which creates alliances beyond party lines.

Can't wait to read this research by Prof Sarah.

Eg - is flat-earthism worthy of belief in a democratic society

We had a Creationist science teacher at a local school, and he was allowed to carry on in role as long as he didn't bring it into the classroom.

Sorry - I obviously meant 'worthy of respect in a democratic society'.