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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton

999 replies

Mollyollydolly · 25/04/2021 13:21

Saw this on twitter and thought it deserved a thread to itself.

As Jason Braler (employment lawyer) says on twitter "It's more a thesis than a traditional skeleton, but it certainly drives home the points from every conceivable angle.
It may also be the only ever EAT skeleton to have 4 references to Orwell"

hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 27/04/2021 13:47

Maya is what " brave and stunning" actually looks like.

Shedbuilder · 27/04/2021 13:48

Neither works - trans people also believe in biological sex, and saying gender identity doesn't exist can't be taken seriously.

Well there's certainly someone around here who can't be taken seriously, aren't there?

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 13:48

@Fieldoftheclothofgold

If she loses, compelled speech will be written into law. The law won’t be worth the paper it’s written on. She mustn’t lose.
If she loses, life will just carry on on as before, but will be just a tiny bit easier for a tiny number of vulnerable people.
Manderleyagain · 27/04/2021 13:49

Pota2 upthread pointed out that it might be good that the judge is asking questions that suggest he's seeing it from both points of view. Which is a good point I hadn't thought of. It also gives maya's qc the invitation to answer putting the alternative view.

I will look into leadership changes as EHRC. Sounds like an interesting line on enquiry. I really want to know what they're going to say. These court cases really keep you on the edge of your seat.

BettyFilous · 27/04/2021 13:52

If she loses, life will just carry on on as before, but will be just a tiny bit easier for a tiny number of vulnerable people.

99.9% of the population, scientists and teachers will be curtailed in their ability to even discuss one of the most basic precepts of reality and life as we know it. Yeah, that’s a healthy balance. Hmm

Fieldoftheclothofgold · 27/04/2021 13:53

If she loses, life will just carry on on as before, but will be just a tiny bit easier for a tiny number of vulnerable people.

Compelled speech is against the law. My deeply held beliefs and the right to express them are written in the law. If she loses in a case this blatant, compelled speech will be legal. That means they’ll be able to compel you as well as me. Whoever has the power will simply define the beliefs they don’t like as ‘offensive’ or ‘harmful’.

PearPickingPorky · 27/04/2021 13:54

Of course Melanie P is married to Joshua Rozenberg, so they may have discussed it at home!

Oh wow I did not know that. What a small world.

JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 27/04/2021 13:54

Please please please don't let this thread be derailed.

Please.

JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 27/04/2021 13:54

@PearPickingPorky

Of course Melanie P is married to Joshua Rozenberg, so they may have discussed it at home!

Oh wow I did not know that. What a small world.

I didn't know that either!
JediGnot · 27/04/2021 13:57

@BettyFilous

If she loses, life will just carry on on as before, but will be just a tiny bit easier for a tiny number of vulnerable people.

99.9% of the population, scientists and teachers will be curtailed in their ability to even discuss one of the most basic precepts of reality and life as we know it. Yeah, that’s a healthy balance. Hmm

I think what Shizuku misses is that if the trans-orthoxy gets it's way in law things will RAPIDLY go downhill fast.

For one there is the serious risk of physical reprisals (perhaps by violent right wing men who "love and protect their women") as more and more people feel that they need to stand up to a minority twho are seeking to oppress others.

For two there is a serious risk of the next government being even more right wing and nasty than the current one and we'll end up with someone more like Putin in charge who'll make gay bashing legal and "proper" transphobia compulsory. (Proper transpohobia, not the made up transphobia that anti-women bigots bang on about).

Careful what you wish for. This is REALLY not going to end well for trans people if they win.

CardinalLolzy · 27/04/2021 13:57

It is frustrating when people are unable to understand that this case is specifically about the belief that sex is real and unchangeable and whether people are allowed to believe that without discrimination or not.

I feel a bit sorry for people who are being misled about it but at least it's all written down quite clearly for those who want to know what it's about.

PearPickingPorky · 27/04/2021 13:59

Neither works - trans people also believe in biological sex, and saying gender identity doesn't exist can't be taken seriously.

"I don't want to respect trans people's identities" would probably be most accurate approach.

Oh now you all believe in biological sex too, do you. You just don't want it to ever be talked about or recognised?

Maya isn't saying "gender identity doesn't exist", she's saying it's subjective and she doesn't believe in it, or its relevance in life where sex matters.

JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 27/04/2021 14:00

Should be resuming soon.

BadGherkin · 27/04/2021 14:03

Time to disengage with distractions and derailing, and refocus on Maya?

nauticant · 27/04/2021 14:05

A quick compilation:

mobile.twitter.com/TheQueenVic94/status/1386971620510769152

SunsetBeetch · 27/04/2021 14:11

@BadGherkin

Time to disengage with distractions and derailing, and refocus on Maya?
YES
JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 27/04/2021 14:12

@BadGherkin

Time to disengage with distractions and derailing, and refocus on Maya?
Yes please.

Sick to the back teeth of the derailing.

This is about Maya Forstater and freedom of belief and conscience in a democratic society subject to protections.

GreyhoundG1rl · 27/04/2021 14:13

[quote nauticant]A quick compilation:

mobile.twitter.com/TheQueenVic94/status/1386971620510769152[/quote]
The idiocy and agressiveness on there is terrifying. What weirdos walk among us.

yourhairiswinterfire · 27/04/2021 14:17

Sex Matters
@SexMattersOrg

Examples of beliefs protected under Art 9: BNP views re ethnic purity (Readfearn); Gay marriage wrong (Smith, Ladele); Children should not be brought up by gay parents (Page); Being gay itself wrong (McFarlane ).

Those were all within scope, and whether or not restriction was justified invovled careful balancing.

But a woman stating biological sex is real and not the same as gender is ''not worthy of respect'' Hmm

R0wantrees · 27/04/2021 14:17

Maya Forstater
'What is at stake?'
(extract)
The Tribunal held that, because of the risk of causing offence, both the use of language to refer to biological sex, and the beliefs which that expresses, are unacceptable in a democratic society. This means that ordinary words like man and woman, male and female, son and daughter, mother and father, gay, lesbian, heterosexual are all removed from use as a means to talk about the sexes.
As the skeleton argument states, the Tribunal’s approach is reminiscent of the Ministry of Truth’s Newspeak:
words themselves are to have their ‘undesirable meanings purged out of them’ along with the associated ideas, so that ‘a heretical thought… should be literally unthinkable at least so far as thought is dependent upon words’

As Janice Turner writes I am far from alone in having faced detriment, discipline or dismissal at work for expressing beliefs of this kind.
Guardian journalists, principled, progressive writers, who are terrified of uttering what now counts as WrongSpeak. As the tram-tracks of left-wing discourse have narrowed… suggesting a humane balance must be reached between trans activist demands and women’s rights, can result in vicious censure from colleagues, even demands that they are sacked. Questions imply criticism: disagreement is hate-speech.
She writes of feminist authors dumped by agents, who in turn are frightened for their own livelihoods. Female academics enduring professional defamation, petitions to no-platform them, exclusion from publications and talks cancelled. A corporate lawyer reported to her chief executive just for following feminist accounts on Twitter; a teacher reported to her head by a student intern who’d overheard her criticise the charity Mermaids. A charity worker faced a complaint to her board because she’d “liked” a JK Rowling tweet. A copywriter who queried why “woman” must be replaced with “womxn’ getting fewer chances to work.
I know far too many of these stories myself; ordinary people made terrified to speak up for fear of their jobs and careers. The most critical places where the surpression of the ability to speak truthfully and use ordinary words to talk about sex is when people’s jobs involve the safeguarding of children and vulnerable people, and establishing and implementing policies for their protection. (continues)

mforstater.medium.com/what-is-at-stake-18a8da1af6b7

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 14:24

@Fieldoftheclothofgold

If she loses, life will just carry on on as before, but will be just a tiny bit easier for a tiny number of vulnerable people.

Compelled speech is against the law. My deeply held beliefs and the right to express them are written in the law. If she loses in a case this blatant, compelled speech will be legal. That means they’ll be able to compel you as well as me. Whoever has the power will simply define the beliefs they don’t like as ‘offensive’ or ‘harmful’.

So you don't think a trans woman should ever be compelled to define herself as male.
Fieldoftheclothofgold · 27/04/2021 14:26

So you don't think a trans woman should ever be compelled to define herself as male.

I don’t believe a transwoman should be compelled to speak against her beliefs. The question ‘What sex was recorded against your name on your birth certificate when you were born?’ might legitimately be asked to define sex. Nobody then has to answer. Making a false declaration is different.

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 14:27

@PearPickingPorky

Neither works - trans people also believe in biological sex, and saying gender identity doesn't exist can't be taken seriously.

"I don't want to respect trans people's identities" would probably be most accurate approach.

Oh now you all believe in biological sex too, do you. You just don't want it to ever be talked about or recognised?

Maya isn't saying "gender identity doesn't exist", she's saying it's subjective and she doesn't believe in it, or its relevance in life where sex matters.

"Oh now you all believe in biological sex too, do you."

Have done all along. The idea that we don't is just something transphobes made up.

"You just don't want it to ever be talked about or recognised?"

We talk about it all the time - we even have medical interventions to alter our sex characteristics. Pretty difficult to do that if you didn't believe they existed.

GreyhoundG1rl · 27/04/2021 14:28

So you don't think a trans woman should ever be compelled to define herself as male.
Other people should not be compelled to call a transwoman female, if they don't believe it's a fact.

littlbrowndog · 27/04/2021 14:28

#Istandwithmaya trending in uk and Ireland

🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽👏👏👏👏👏