Can you ever reconcile your feminism with a partners past (sex industry)

[pollyrocket75]

Ok so eventually starting my own thread on this as I seem to chip in on other threads but with a obvious need to chat.

I’ll try to cut a long painful story short, although obviously context is everything (and sometimes nothing).

My life time feminism is fairly (well, very) anti prostitution/lap dancing.

If I was asked or if I read it on here I was say I have/had an absolute hard line in the sand about it in a partner- whether current or past.

I’ve been with my partner a few years, we don’t live together or share children.

I am in love with him, he’s decent, kind, intelligent, calm, sensitive, blah blah. He is not a meat head.

Almost a year into our relationship, I probed. And got info that devastated me.

Two decades ago, two prostitutes (in UK, in a group visiting a brothel after nights out). Never went with them again, not his thing (although maybe that takes one visit to work out?!). Also around that same time was a regular “drinker” in a lap dancing club. Just the one club (apparently). With mates, allegedly no dances (I know). Just opposite where they lived and his flat share was a regular, so they went to drink. Went for a few months in a group and says has never been to one since (I know).

He worked in an industry where this sort of thing was common, and also went with women (friends and even a girlfriend, double grim).

So, if you told me this story I would say, no way, doesn’t matter when, it’s unforgivable. The brothel. Obviously lap dancing to me has always been totally grim and the sanitised face of the industry, but I do realise 20 years ago for some people and industries it may have felt more normalised.

I’m not necessarily wanting people to persuade me it’s ok to live with this or not (although it's mumsnet so feel free 😁). I also realise LTB (I almost did at the time of the reveal) would be my response. I don’t think I’m necessarily looking for advice on what action to take.

I’m really interested in whether anyone who considers themselves a radical feminist has managed to live with knowledge about the past such as this, and whether you feel men (or anyone) can change that much. And if so, how did you integrate it?

For info, he did defend both things a little when he told me - not in a way that he wanted to or would do it again, or was proud of it, but in the sense that the lap dancing was just a bit of thoughtless meaningless opportunistic hedonism/fun (I know, gross). Of it’s time. Curiosity. Knew the owners. Thing is, if it had been a couple of drunken peer pressured stag nights I could probably deal with that, but it was a few times weekly, for months.

Obviously like every other 'busted' punter ( in the history of the world ever) story about the brothel... he was dragged to it inebriated (I know), his work mates (who were regulars) paid for them all. There were other “mitigating” factors too but that’s probably enough for here.

Most of the time I live with it, we’ve deconstructed it, he knows and honours my feelings, I don’t have any worries that he would do either again....he’s also quite a different man than he was 20 years ago. In all sorts of ways.

1% of the time. Well. You know. I feel it could be ultimately unforgivable for me. That knowledge. That whatever the circumstances, a woman who didn’t actually want to, did, for money. And he knew that, albeit when younger and less “conscious”.

On darker days it still feels ultimately deeply very rotten...

Urgh hate that society makes this so available and normalised 🙁.

Sympathy don’t know what I would do in your shoes. Dh genuinely not into that finds it mortifying and whole industry sleazy. Has lots of female friends. Purposefully had a lunchtime stag and “forgot” to invite the few friends who are into that. I knew him at work before we got together so know it’s not a front he’s put on for me.

but I do realise 20 years ago for some people and industries it may have felt more normalised.

Were you an adult 20 years ago? I certainly would have ditched any man then who went into a strip club.

I can't imagine having sex with a man who had ever used a prostitute. Just so disgusting.

I with you in my views.

However, people make mistakes. If you trust him, and believe he understands that those things were mistakes, leave this in the past now.

Don't ruin your current happiness for something you can't control.

Transsloth yes that's the thing. I was an adult. I wouldn't have gone near him then. Certainly wouldn't have gone to one with him, like his ex did. Grim. Or if he had told me it was 5 years ago. Would have been an instant dealbreaker.

So you asked, he told you the truth, and now you can't cope with it? Sorry, but whilst I won't defend the exploitation of women in any form, it would have been easy for him to lie. So then you'd have felt ok about it, and never known he'd lied. But the facts wouldn't have changed, just been unknown.

If people cannot grow and evolve and learn better, then we are doomed. You aren't dating the person he was then, you are dating the one he is now. If that person now isn't what you want, then break it off now, as much for his sake as yours.

I would probably have no choice but to. But yeah it would affect how I thought about them. Only he really knows if his attitude has changed or whether its just nore hidden now.

OP, I feel the same way as you, and I'd be struggling in the same way. I probably don't want to question DP too closely about all of this - I believe that he's a good person, and wouldn't do anything like this now.

Is this how all of this works though - society is disgusting, and nearly all men are involved when younger and less experienced, then the good ones stop when they're older?

Hi. My view is things are and have changed. We women have said buying a human being is wrong and impossible for a long time, but only these last few years has it really embedded itself. Men can only now feel ashamed by what was a few years ago more normal.

I see it everywhere. In lyrics to songs. Most of the famous blues players beat their wives and partners. I watched Flashdance a while ago and a man in the club reached out, grabbed a bottom cheek of the passing dancer and began to comment on it's shape and firmness. I said to my partner that sexual assault was just there in daylight, presented as a fait accompli.

I do believe that's how it was.

I feel that women are in front of this issue and men are behind. In our lifetime, the men around us have probably minimised our experiences, excused them, enjoyed the privilege. In years to come, hopefully it will be different. However it leaves us with the issue of, how deeply do I want to engage with men then, if they're lagging behind in decent behaviour.

I cant answer your dilemma tho, but I utterly get it. I had a disagreement with my partner recently over his work colleague using a prostitute. I just think we are in front of them and every time theres an issue, I'll be on the side of equality. I've had it at work recently too, a man saying he believes men should be the boss at home. I was so astonished and angry, I just said 'there is no way I'd tolerate that's and got up and left. We are in front of them and he needed to hear that this old fashioned way of thinking has gone. I hope he told his wife.

What's your attitude towards porn? Does he use that?

I know some women are fine with that, just wondering if there is evidence of him actually having a different attitude now.

Transsloth well says he doesn't use it now (I know). Did when single. Aware of the issues and also seems to think it's negative for men. Physically and spiritually. Again, have to trust that, could be bullshit.

Men can only now feel ashamed by what was a few years ago more normal.

Some things have got better but the push for "sex work" being normalised is huge, to the extent that universities give advice on how to support the prostituted students.

The amount and acceptance of porn is huge now.

The idea that it was more normal then and less now is ridiculous.

It's really difficult. I am completely aligned with you about the sex industry and its an absolute red line for me - if my partner were to cross it now.

I know my DH went to a strip club once, aged 18, on a stag do. Whilst I think that is pretty grim when I think back to what I did at 18, it was all pretty dreadful and not remotely feminist. I'm assuming he wasn't that young at the time?

I am a strong believer that you are not simply your worst mistake. People are complex and can change, sometimes dramatically. They are always a mix of good and bad, triumphs and errors. I've done some awful things in my life, and I've tried to do good. Granted, I've never bought another human for sex, sex but there are times in my life where I wouldn't have understood the harm of it.

I think I would probably have a heartfelt discussion about it and how I felt and see what he said. He's possibly either not thought about it or been a bit ashamed for 20 years. If he would never, ever consider it now and be repulsed by it, I might be able to move past it.

Hope it works out for you.

Somethingtosay yes I think that right. Maybe unless you've been around feminists you just accept these things as a young man. Although that's not the case with all men of course. But the majority. I'm surprised as he's well informed about issues, I can't see how these scapes would have occurred unless you were hanging out with a bunch of idiots. Which says something of itself maybe.

@UpAt5amAgain

It's really difficult. I am completely aligned with you about the sex industry and its an absolute red line for me - if my partner were to cross it now.

I know my DH went to a strip club once, aged 18, on a stag do. Whilst I think that is pretty grim when I think back to what I did at 18, it was all pretty dreadful and not remotely feminist. I'm assuming he wasn't that young at the time?

I am a strong believer that you are not simply your worst mistake. People are complex and can change, sometimes dramatically. They are always a mix of good and bad, triumphs and errors. I've done some awful things in my life, and I've tried to do good. Granted, I've never bought another human for sex, sex but there are times in my life where I wouldn't have understood the harm of it.

I think I would probably have a heartfelt discussion about it and how I felt and see what he said. He's possibly either not thought about it or been a bit ashamed for 20 years. If he would never, ever consider it now and be repulsed by it, I might be able to move past it.

Hope it works out for you.

He wasn't 18; that I could cope with more. I was a complete idiot at 18, so I think if very young we probably get greater leeway.

He was 30 ish. 😕

I am a strong believer that you are not simply your worst mistake. People are complex and can change, sometimes dramatically. They are always a mix of good and bad, triumphs and errors. I've done some awful things in my life, and I've tried to do good. Granted, I've never bought another human for sex, sex but there are times in my life where I wouldn't have understood the harm of it.

I agree - people change and culture changes: i did some stupid and illegal and not very nice things in my twenties - (I don't tell people though - your DP made a mistake there.)

(I think Lap-dancing/prostitute culture was very enmeshed in the world of work esp in finance/the city back then and I think that has changed.)

Eek by 30 yes I would have hoped he would be more aware that this was not ok. If he was with a crowd that did think it was all fine and jolly good fun, I can see why maybe he wouldn't really give it too much thought. I don't know.

I've changed so much and become much more aware of feminist (and other) issues in the last 5 years or so.

I think all you can do is talk to him about your feelings, share with him and take it from there. If you love one another and want a future you can have it, but you should be able to share your pain about his past actions and he should be able to speak freely to you about how he felt then and now.

Ultimately nothing can change what he's done in the past. You do have control over the future.

I was a ‘cool girl’ twenty years ago. I went to a lap dancing club, pissed, with my friends to show what a cool girl I was. I’d say I don’t know what I was thinking, but actually I wasn’t thinking at all. When I look back now it seems inconceivable but in my life/milieu at that time it was the way it was.
I regret what I did. I regret the exploitative sex and many other things that I undertook to be ‘cool girl’. I’ve changed since then and I wonder if perhaps your dp has changed too?

@MrsWooster

I was a ‘cool girl’ twenty years ago. I went to a lap dancing club, pissed, with my friends to show what a cool girl I was. I’d say I don’t know what I was thinking, but actually I wasn’t thinking at all. When I look back now it seems inconceivable but in my life/milieu at that time it was the way it was. I regret what I did. I regret the exploitative sex and many other things that I undertook to be ‘cool girl’. I’ve changed since then and I wonder if perhaps your dp has changed too?

Yes. Some of my friends did too. Managed to pass me by but I've always been pretty militant. Whole thing is just awful, and how it's been accepted into our culture is beyond me. My female friends that have been (in the past) don't hate women, so I have to try to extend that giddy, drunk analogy to at least the lap dancing.

@MrsWooster

I was a ‘cool girl’ twenty years ago. I went to a lap dancing club, pissed, with my friends to show what a cool girl I was. I’d say I don’t know what I was thinking, but actually I wasn’t thinking at all. When I look back now it seems inconceivable but in my life/milieu at that time it was the way it was. I regret what I did. I regret the exploitative sex and many other things that I undertook to be ‘cool girl’. I’ve changed since then and I wonder if perhaps your dp has changed too?

You say you weren't thinking at all... we've all been there

Interested to know if you had any misgivings? Did you think it was exploitative at all at the time?

@Moondust001

So you asked, he told you the truth, and now you can't cope with it? Sorry, but whilst I won't defend the exploitation of women in any form, it would have been easy for him to lie. So then you'd have felt ok about it, and never known he'd lied. But the facts wouldn't have changed, just been unknown.

If people cannot grow and evolve and learn better, then we are doomed. You aren't dating the person he was then, you are dating the one he is now. If that person now isn't what you want, then break it off now, as much for his sake as yours.

Yes. I know.

I think that's the point of my asking in a way. He did tell the truth (hopefully).

We don't interview people on first meeting them. It might be good if there was a tick sheet - seriously. We try to filter according to what we see and experience in the here and now. So it's about then finding out something that is difficult to live with, against your core values, whilst in a relationship. And if that thing is in the past, does it become less jarring.

Some people say don't ask. In some ways that's probably wise as we have to love and live with the person now. But surely there's some things (not necessarily this... could be criminal record, past relationships, etc), that are of interest and could be seen as asking out of self-interest?

I don't know about MrsWooster but as a teen of the 90s I was definitely sold the 'empowering' line and feel for it hook line and sinker. Combined with the rampant misogyny on TV and in the lad culture and nothing made much sense around that time.

My feminist awakening has been in my 30s - the past 5 years - and it is still ongoing.

Fell* god I hate this phone

I would find myself feeling repelled by him to be honest - I’d try and reason it by saying it was 20 years ago - but I’d be conflicted and it wouldn’t be something I could get past I don’t think - it’s a tough one and your feelings now do matter even though he might want to forget. Have you told him how you feel about it? I think I would need a lot of reassurances that his attitude towards women had changed radically to be able to reconcile that the person I was in love with is also the person who could have sex with a woman for money.

So he's in his 50s now? Same generation as me. He doesn't have the excuse of growing up in the same pornified culture we have now.

I don’t think you should let his past ruin what you have now, but I totally get why you are disgusted by it, I would be too. He probably feels shame about it and at least he was honest. We all make mistakes and I want to live in a world where people change and become better people.

I lived with two women at university who were lap dancers and whilst I thought it was grim, it’s taken until the last few years for me to really understand why I think that. The women I lived with said they felt empowered and liked the money, but they actually had quite messed up views towards men because of issues from childhood.

Good luck OP.