Can you ever reconcile your feminism with a partners past (sex industry)

[pollyrocket75]

Ok so eventually starting my own thread on this as I seem to chip in on other threads but with a obvious need to chat.

I’ll try to cut a long painful story short, although obviously context is everything (and sometimes nothing).

My life time feminism is fairly (well, very) anti prostitution/lap dancing.

If I was asked or if I read it on here I was say I have/had an absolute hard line in the sand about it in a partner- whether current or past.

I’ve been with my partner a few years, we don’t live together or share children.

I am in love with him, he’s decent, kind, intelligent, calm, sensitive, blah blah. He is not a meat head.

Almost a year into our relationship, I probed. And got info that devastated me.

Two decades ago, two prostitutes (in UK, in a group visiting a brothel after nights out). Never went with them again, not his thing (although maybe that takes one visit to work out?!). Also around that same time was a regular “drinker” in a lap dancing club. Just the one club (apparently). With mates, allegedly no dances (I know). Just opposite where they lived and his flat share was a regular, so they went to drink. Went for a few months in a group and says has never been to one since (I know).

He worked in an industry where this sort of thing was common, and also went with women (friends and even a girlfriend, double grim).

So, if you told me this story I would say, no way, doesn’t matter when, it’s unforgivable. The brothel. Obviously lap dancing to me has always been totally grim and the sanitised face of the industry, but I do realise 20 years ago for some people and industries it may have felt more normalised.

I’m not necessarily wanting people to persuade me it’s ok to live with this or not (although it's mumsnet so feel free 😁). I also realise LTB (I almost did at the time of the reveal) would be my response. I don’t think I’m necessarily looking for advice on what action to take.

I’m really interested in whether anyone who considers themselves a radical feminist has managed to live with knowledge about the past such as this, and whether you feel men (or anyone) can change that much. And if so, how did you integrate it?

For info, he did defend both things a little when he told me - not in a way that he wanted to or would do it again, or was proud of it, but in the sense that the lap dancing was just a bit of thoughtless meaningless opportunistic hedonism/fun (I know, gross). Of it’s time. Curiosity. Knew the owners. Thing is, if it had been a couple of drunken peer pressured stag nights I could probably deal with that, but it was a few times weekly, for months.

Obviously like every other 'busted' punter ( in the history of the world ever) story about the brothel... he was dragged to it inebriated (I know), his work mates (who were regulars) paid for them all. There were other “mitigating” factors too but that’s probably enough for here.

Most of the time I live with it, we’ve deconstructed it, he knows and honours my feelings, I don’t have any worries that he would do either again....he’s also quite a different man than he was 20 years ago. In all sorts of ways.

1% of the time. Well. You know. I feel it could be ultimately unforgivable for me. That knowledge. That whatever the circumstances, a woman who didn’t actually want to, did, for money. And he knew that, albeit when younger and less “conscious”.

On darker days it still feels ultimately deeply very rotten...

I have also been to lap dance clubs and had dances. I was researching lap dance at the time. Two of the clubs were clearly student-age girls who were having a go at it. The atmosphere was one of fun. One club I walked out of cos it had a totally different vibe, no fun or laughter, aggressive upselling of drinks, dancers looked miserable, tense feeling. Very uncomfortable.

In a partner, attending a lap dance club in the past would not be a deal breaker as long as he didn't still do it. Prostitutes would give me more pause. It would depend on how he saw it now, I guess.

No one is perfect.

It was in the past, a long time ago. People change. You've had a discussion, and are continuing to have discussions. It's up to you ultimately but I would look at the person he is now and whether you still want him in your life in the future. Does he add to your life now? Sometimes, you just have to let the past go.

To me I think its important that he was defensive and tried to justify it. I think that if he had said that buying womens bodies for his own sexual pleasure was something that he thought was abhorent and he can't believe that he did I would be more openminded.

But as it sounds like he presented it and his actual views on it. I couldn't stay with him. Just gross. He's told you what deep down he thinks about women.

Thing is it’s not massively in the past he was in his 30s. A teen or young adult yes I would agree but 30s?

No one is perfect

Totes - we could all find ourselves buying a women's body to use for our sexual satisfaction. Opps! No biggie!

@FFSFFSFFS

To me I think its important that he was defensive and tried to justify it. I think that if he had said that buying womens bodies for his own sexual pleasure was something that he thought was abhorent and he can't believe that he did I would be more openminded.

But as it sounds like he presented it and his actual views on it. I couldn't stay with him. Just gross. He's told you what deep down he thinks about women.

To be fair he does say that it is wrong. That it is unethical, but I suppose he was trying to present it to me as "something and nothing". Obviously we know that's wrong. It is something very important. But I suppose he was trying to say it was something trivial that he hadn't thought about for 20 years. Not that that was right, but presented as not a big part of him or something that is part of his ongoing life.

He presents it as a mistake made under the influence of drink (and other things), in the past, in an industry that it was fairly normal. It's all gross. I don't like that he presents himself as so weak willed. But that's what it was.

@WarOnWomen

No one is perfect.

It was in the past, a long time ago. People change. You've had a discussion, and are continuing to have discussions. It's up to you ultimately but I would look at the person he is now and whether you still want him in your life in the future. Does he add to your life now? Sometimes, you just have to let the past go.

Yes he does. I love him. He's gentle and thoughtful. Not that any of that matters for the issue in question.

I started this as there's another thread running about could you date someone who had slept with a prostitute. The majority obviously said no, no matter where or when. I would agree in principle. The point of my question is. I am doing. I love him. But this is a stain, a shadow. I live with it, but will it always eat away at me. I have no worries about it happening now... for all sorts of reasons. He's very different now, different mates, living arrangements, industry etc.

We do talk about it. We've had some tricky conversations. Almost broken up.

We are a few years in. I think I've accepted it. No other massive red flags in this area.

But I suppose I'm integrating something that is abhorrent. And can that ever really be something we can find peace with as a couple.

It’s probably something I personally would not be able to get past. I guess you just have to decide if you can.
I get that nobody’s perfect and we all grow as human beings, but buying women is where I draw the line.

That’s just me personally. I’m not trying to tell anyone else what they should do.

It would depend on other things, but if i really loved my partner and they understood my point of view on it, then i wouldnt necessarily see it as a deal breaker, as ive done all sorts of things that i have a completely different perspective on now, and I dont hate myself for it and i give my partner same respect and leeway

@Mumoblue

It’s probably something I personally would not be able to get past. I guess you just have to decide if you can. I get that nobody’s perfect and we all grow as human beings, but buying women is where I draw the line.

That’s just me personally. I’m not trying to tell anyone else what they should do.

I think I would say I feel the same.

Difficult when it's found out into a really nourishing, deep, loving and equal relationship.

Am sure it will emerge as a lesson. Not sure what it is though yet...

So he's saying its "wrong" but no biggie. To me that's just as bad to be honest. It might not be a big part of his life - but he participated in and supported an industry that exploits and ruins womens and girls' lives in so many ways for their whole lives. In some ways that's the ultimate of male privilege isn't it - no biggie for him as he gets to walk away from it....

I know its easy for me to say because I'm not in the situation. But to me a man who used prostitutes when he was in his 30s and now in his 50s thinks oh yeah that wasn't great but no biggie is a man who at his core really does not support feminism.

But this is a stain, a shadow. I live with it, but will it always eat away at me.

Does he feel like this?

@FFSFFSFFS

So he's saying its "wrong" but no biggie. To me that's just as bad to be honest. It might not be a big part of his life - but he participated in and supported an industry that exploits and ruins womens and girls' lives in so many ways for their whole lives. In some ways that's the ultimate of male privilege isn't it - no biggie for him as he gets to walk away from it....

I know its easy for me to say because I'm not in the situation. But to me a man who used prostitutes when he was in his 30s and now in his 50s thinks oh yeah that wasn't great but no biggie is a man who at his core really does not support feminism.

Yes. At the risk of sounding like I am defending him...I'm not, just trying to clarify. I do agree. But I think more similar to... it being in the same way that I've tried or done some things in my life once or twice (not necessarily sexual)... so say cheating on an ex. A red flag for most people. I cheated at the end of a relationship with one ex, when younger, it's not a pattern of behaviour, and I've not cheated on any other exes, although god knows I probably should have done . I would never cheat now and haven't done so for 25 years. And, there's other things that I consider unethical and wrong, that I might have tried once, but that I don't think in isolation paint a picture of "me". If I talk or think about them I feel Some sort of regret, and wished I'd behaved differently, but they're not something that is relevant in my day to day, or long term life...?

@FFSFFSFFS

No one is perfect

Totes - we could all find ourselves buying a women's body to use for our sexual satisfaction. Opps! No biggie!

At the end of the day, it's up to each individual to decide what's important. How much does it matter to current and future relationship what the partner did in the past, especially if they are not engaging in the same behaviour? There are hard lines that are different for everyone (my views don't matter as it's the OP's decision). Ultimately, it's up to the OP to decide whether her DP's past is important enough to end the relationship or whether she should let the past go.

OP, you said you don't like that DP comes across as weak and not making his decisions in the past, is he still the same? Will he go with the flow or will he stand up for himself and what he believes is right? This is more important than what he did in the past.

But cheating on someone is not (in my view) the same as buying a woman's body to use for sex.

There is a whole bucketload of "unethical immoral" things I thing I would be able to move on from.

To me thought that's the big thing - this is in my own personal list of things that I think is so unethical for a 30 year old man to do that it falls within the scope of something that really tells you what he's like as a man.

Yes. I'm really interested in this. The concept of ... is it forgiveness? Do you have to be able to "forgive" something that was long before your time?

It is up to me. I'm managing to compartmentalise it, it's not a recent reveal... but I find myself "triggered" if that's not too dramatic a word

...by podcasts, news articles, mumsnet threads etc. I suppose when I read anything about the abuses and deep deep misogyny inherent in the sex industry, I feel enraged, generally, but then it's hard not to attach that to his past, to us. I don't mean I'm constantly bringing it up, but I do have to fairly frequently "deal with it" internally... just because of the world we women live in.

So again, interested to know, apart from stag night lap dancing shenanigans, if anyone has assimilated anything like this and moved forward. Not because I think that's what I must do, but because I'm interested in the process and what's potentially come out the other side...

I do think quite a lot of men who probably haven't considered themselves sexist just because they have taken part in the sex industry in the past are starting to confront the reality of all of this as a result of the rise of anti-porn literature (not all of which is wholesome I know when coming from the male rights viewpoint, but much of it IS very useful for women if it helps them think of the bigger patriarchal system).

Oh that's a difficult one. Only you can decide if it's a deal breaker and reflects his attitude to women in general.

He presents it as a mistake made under the influence of drink (and other things), in the past, in an industry that it was fairly normal. It's all gross. I don't like that he presents himself as so weak willed. But that's what it was.

Everyone makes mistakes but his mistake involved the abuse of women. Yuk.
If he is genuinely remorseful I would probably try and see past it but I can see why you struggle OP.

pollyrocket. I don't think you can forgive someone's past, it had nothing to do with you after all. It's about letting go of the past. I think it's more can you forgive yourself that you are with a man with such a past, given your own morals, standards and viewpoint? Maybe, forgive is the wrong word but I can't think of another word at the moment.

I'm agreeing fully with FFSFFSFFS OP, he was an adult at the time and knew what he was doing. His excuses are rubbish. He paid for sex twice for goodness sake.

IMO A man using a prostitute is engaging in paid for rape and I couldn't get past it at all.

From what you've said it doesn't weigh heavily on his mind, it seems he doesn't really think about it at all. That's pretty telling about how views women in general and what he did.

Yuck yuck yuck! He would actually make my skin crawl.

How long have you been together now OP?

I think I would have similar feelings to you about this, OP. I wouldn't want to make excuses for him, but I'm trying to imagine if there was a context. Was this somewhere all his work colleagues went and to not go would ostracise him at work? If that was the case I might be able to get over the lap dancing club, but not the prostitutes. I do think that we all make mistakes in life and it's important to be able to forgive someone's past if there's been a change, but I'd honestly always feel that he was weak-willed, I'd always respect him a little less. I'd wonder if he'd still be doing it today under the same circumstances. It reminds me a bit of Russell Brand. I read his autobiography where he talks about visiting a brothel in the far East where you chose a woman from the line up by shining a blinding light in her eyes. He didn't sound remorseful about it in the book, it was like a fun little anecdote. Now he's repackaged himself as Mr Peace and Love - I'm not convinced in the slightest, it's because his previous incarnation is out of fashion! Sorry if I'm not being helpful! Ultimately, if you can see he really has changed you could try to forgive him, but I think it's up to him to prove to you that he isn't a weak and easily swayed character, especially in the treatment of women. I do also think being in his 30s makes it worse than being in his teens or early twenties.

As has been said upthread, I have also done things I'm not proud of and wouldn't like to be judged by.

However as its sex related it's up to you to work out if you can get over it.

I think it's abhorrent that men would visit brothels and lap dancing clubs but many don't question it.

The important thing to me is how he feels once he's actually thought about it.

Initial defence / playing down isn't ideal but is understandable.

I was with a man who had been a bit of a player in his past but saw things differently after my ongoing feminism chats. There are things in his past that were likely to be icky.

While we were together he visited a lap dancing club on a friend's stag night. He absolutely hated it.

He also went away with some men he didn't know very well (specific interest trip, think martial arts training in east Asia) and was absolutely appalled that rather than training and spiritual growth, the others were more interested in finding prostitutes each night.

I knew he didn't as he was on the phone every evening moaning about them.

So I think it depends in his now not his past.

Yes. I'm really interested in this. The concept of ... is it forgiveness? Do you have to be able to "forgive" something that was long before your time?

Also you don't have to forgive anything.

@Moondust001

So you asked, he told you the truth, and now you can't cope with it? Sorry, but whilst I won't defend the exploitation of women in any form, it would have been easy for him to lie. So then you'd have felt ok about it, and never known he'd lied. But the facts wouldn't have changed, just been unknown.

If people cannot grow and evolve and learn better, then we are doomed. You aren't dating the person he was then, you are dating the one he is now. If that person now isn't what you want, then break it off now, as much for his sake as yours.

This is really good advice.

Interesting mix of views as to whether people can change, and whether some things are just too much to ever accept.

We've been together 4 years. In that time there's been no concerns about behaviour or attitudes. I would say that he's listened and thought more about feminism in that time. I don't think he's soft soaping me, I think he's evolved ( even before we met) in all sorts of ways and has strong ethics in other areas. Difficult isn't it... do we allow people to change and evolve. Yes in theory. Do we believe it of men... often not, I'd say with good reason.

Do we continue what is, in all other ways, a loving and supportive relationship with someone that we have an incredible connection and friendship with in all ways... but who has acted in the past in ways that one finds abhorrent. I don't know.