Long feature about Maya Forstater

[Stopsnowing]

In the Telegraph:

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/amfightingfor-therightto-saymen-cannever-bewomen/

This is really very good and sets out the issue clearly, how jkr got involved, the expansion of the LGBT alphabet & some photos of pips bunce

the writer does play the ‘I’m not like those feminists’ card with an accusation of misandry thrown in but it’s a bit half hearted

I never knew about the Pips Bunce connection

and Gregor Murray too

all the usual suspects

Bloody hell, she's so brave.

Thank you, brave women. You are making me braver.

This is just all fucking ridiculous.

Can it be read without a subscription? And/or can you tell if the article is in the print version? I haven't had a bash at the Telegraph crossword in ages

That's a really great article. I thought this sentence summed up the batshittery well:

"If Forstater had won the case, it would have legally prevented employers from dismissing staff for expressing the view that there are only two biological sexes."

I imagine that many readers will be startled to find that their understanding of the most basic concepts could be a sackable offence.

@PopperUppleton

Can it be read without a subscription? And/or can you tell if the article is in the print version? I haven't had a bash at the Telegraph crossword in ages

Archived here: www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/amfightingfor-therightto-saymen-cannever-bewomen/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">archive.li/www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/amfightingfor-therightto-saymen-cannever-bewomen/

I can't read it. What is the Pips Bunce connection?

I can't read it. What is the Pips Bunce connection?

(extract)
"One of her tweets was critical about Pips Bunce, a senior director of Credit Suisse who identifies as gender fluid and non-binary (someone who identifies as not exclusively woman or man). Forstater made comments about Bunce, who sometimes goes into her (Bunce’s preferred pronoun) office in women’s clothing as Pippa and on other days in a suit as Phil, when she was named as one of the Financial Times’ Top 100 Women in Business. Forstater questioned the idea of Bunce being recognised by the FT as a woman and refused to rescind her views.

It was Forstater’s opinions on Bunce that would provoke, as she understands it, a few employees at the US headquarters of CGD (people Forstater knew only vaguely, as she worked for its European branch) to raise concerns, and when CGD requested she state that her account was personal, she complied. CGD in Washington then set in motion a ‘process’ – undertaken by an independent company – to look into the matter. Forstater claims she was not interviewed by the investigators and was not allowed to see their report. Eventually, in March 2019, she received an email from the company informing her that they would not be renewing her contract, ‘with immediate effect’. (continues)

There is no doubt that sexual politics in the workplace are becoming more and more difficult to deal with in an age when anyone can declare they are a different gender. One of the things that angers Forstater is the way in which she has been portrayed as a workplace bully when she maintains there was no record of openly transgender people working in the London CGD offices. She is, however, unrepentant about her comments about Credit Suisse’s Pips Bunce.

‘Pips Bunce is a married man, he has got kids and he only recently started doing this at work. He had got to the top, where he is at Credit Suisse, as a man but presumably he had been cross-dressing at home for years and now that he is in a senior position he decided he could bring his hobby to work.

‘I have no problem with whatever he does, but being awarded as a woman in business, I thought was obscene.’ (continues)

Thank you
I was aware of the Gregor Murray connection. They is useful for demonstrating the ridiculousness of this ideology

Thanks ItsAll, that's great. I got the impression the interviewer didn't like Maya much

I was aware of the Gregor Murray connection. They is useful for demonstrating the ridiculousness of this ideology

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3586397-Gregor-Murray-SNP-Councillor-guilty-of-verbal-abuse

There's considerable history of Gregor Murray's sexism, misogyny & arrogance:

August 2018
Children’s convener resigns following row over expletive-laden social media outbursts
(extract)
"The North East councillor apologised last month for a series of expletive-laden outbursts on Twitter following an anti-trans protest at London Pride event but was later branded a “disgrace” by party colleague Julie Bell over the remarks.

Gregor Murray, who identifies as gender non-binary and objects to being referred to with the use of the pronoun ‘he’, admitted to making “a number of wrong judgements in communicating with people who campaign against my fundamental human rights”. (continues)
www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/703892/childrens-convener-resigns-following-row-over-expletive-laden-social-media-outbursts

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3332132-Childrens-Convenor-Gregor-Murray-resigns#prettyPhoto

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3316098-Childrens-Convenor-Elected-Councillor-calls-women-cunts-on-Twitter-rants

Murray claimed victimhood in 2018 too:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3332582-Trans-councillor-leaves-roles-after-threats-to-life

It seems that in 2017 " while deputy convener for education, Cllr Murray attacked Alex Salmond’s plan for a 40% female quota in boardrooms as “f*ing stupid”

Well it’s a good article but then ruins it rather by tagging on a section about other people whose views have been criticised - this includes JK Rowling but also Piers Morgan, Lawrence Fox, Amber Rudd, Bryan Adams (for an anti Chinese rant) ... Not exactly helpful for Maya and JKR to be lumped in with these.

I think its a good article. Two things really hit home when I read it:

The first is that although the problem is often articulated in this way:

"It seems to me – and I put it to Forstater – that a little more tolerance on both sides of this argument might make the issue less angry and confrontational. Isn’t this threat of an army of ‘she-males’ waving their willies... a little exaggerated.."

The real problem is the re-writing of history - our understanding of maleness and femaleness into current culture - by entitled males. So this is the "reality" that will pass to the next generation directly. The problem is not a current army of "she-males". It the changing perspective of reality that we are passing on.

And secondly, the current movement of the culture seems to be intent on proscribing feelings into law. This is the right way to feel and you must feel it or you will be breaking the law.

I suppose the latter is the case with most of the protections we legislate for. BUT this one is counter to most people's experience of reality. It strikes me as so dangerous.

Itsallgoingtobefine above picked out this sentence.

"If Forstater had won the case, it would have legally prevented employers from dismissing staff for expressing the view that there are only two biological sexes."

There won't be any Biology teachers left employed.....

Last year Jane Gordon wrote a very sympathetic puff piece announcing her colleague David Thomas' change of name:

Telegraph
14th March 2020
By Jane Gordon
'David Thomas started his transgender diary last March, documenting his journey. Now he is waving goodbye to his old male self. Hello Diana'
(extract)
"It has to be said that the woman I encounter today is a world away from the man I knew during a period in the 1990s when, as journalists, we would frequently find ourselves writing on opposite sides of the gender divide. But the fact that we are now two 60-something women – hopefully on the same side – is not as strange as I expected it to be. This is partly because there is no denying that Diana’s facial surgery has subtly softened her face in rather the same way that her new identity seems to have softened her character. The argumentative, slightly domineering, Eton-educated man I remember (he was the original white privileged male), who penned a book in praise of the patriarchy called Not Guilty: In Defence of the Modern Man, has mellowed in a way that makes a lot of our conversation seem like a slightly frivolous woman-to-woman chat." (continues)
www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/call-diana-columnist-david-thomas-reveals-new-life-look/

Maya Forstater interviewed by Benjamin Boyce:
29 Mar 2021

" #IStandWithMaya | with Maya "

Placemarking to read later, thanks for sharing

I don’t think it matters whether the author of the article likes Maya or has aligned belief. I think it mostly stuck to the facts and was not super indulgent to be an opinion piece.

And her use of ‘she-male’ is cringeworthy and reduces her credibility considerably in making comment about Maya’s ‘beliefs’ being maybe a bit extreme. It actually shows the writer to be rather out of touch even on her choice of words to convey sarcasm and disdain.

The "she-male" quote comes in the context of the writer's sudden, somewhat jarring, self-insertion into the piece:

As much as there does seem to be, in the extreme arguments put forward by certain sections of the transgender movement, an element of misogyny, there is, too, a whiff of misandry coming from some of Forstater’s supporters. As a woman who grew up in the ’50s and ’60s, I think I have a more tolerant view of what my two daughters call The Patriarchy. And my, doubtless old-fashioned, acceptance of a more traditional female life puts me slightly at odds with the kind of feminism that Forstater and the ‘Terfs’ expound.

It seems to me – and I put it to Forstater – that a little more tolerance on both sides of this argument might make the issue less angry and confrontational. Isn’t this threat of an army of ‘she-males’ waving their willies (according to Forstater, 90 per cent of transgender women are intact) as they walk into women-only spaces, a little exaggerated, particularly as the Government has now dropped plans to reform the Gender Recognition Act by introducing self-ID?

That aside, though, I do think the writer got across very well how very normal and sane Maya is. Even the slight dig about the "whiff of misandry coming from some of Forstater’s supporters" would work to snap many reasonable people back to seeing Maya as in no way radical or extreme, whereas thinking a person can change sex, or that gender is more important than sex (I've seen both worldviews), is extremely radical.

Pretending Pips Bunce is literally a woman and giving a women's award because sometimes the male P. Bunce comes to work in a wig, dress and make-up (which I have no problem with) is a grievous insult to women. Bunce's confidence in self-expression should be commended, but having to pretend Bunce is actually female is ridiculous.

I don't really get the she-male part. No need to include a slur.

She male is pretty offensive, no?

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

She male is pretty offensive, no?

It was the writer who introduced the term, but it's a straw man, not a proper represenatation of Maya's views, which was why I quoted the full interjection. (The writer also repeated terms like Trf: "And my, doubtless old-fashioned, acceptance of a more traditional female life puts me slightly at odds with the kind of feminism that Forstater and the ‘Terfs’ expound."* ) By contrast, Maya was quoted as using neutral terms like "male person".

Pretending Pips Bunce is literally a woman and giving a women's award because sometimes the male P. Bunce comes to work in a wig, dress and make-up (which I have no problem with) is a grievous insult to women. Bunce's confidence in self-expression should be commended, but having to pretend Bunce is actually female is ridiculous.

YY. This writer seems like a bit of a clueless idiot.