New feminist campaign "Stop Surrogacy Now"

[RabbitOfCaerbannog]

A new feminist campaign has been set up against the commodification of babies and women's wombs for rent - Stop Surrogacy Now. Looks like an important cause to get behind. From Stop Surrogacy Now's home page:

Surrogacy is the social practice where a woman is ‘used’ for her body, her fertility and reproductive capacity to grow and birth a baby without the intention of being a mother to that child and giving that baby away, or ‘gifting’ that child to ‘Intended Parents’.
We see Surrogacy is the sale of a child where any profit is made. No amount of pretending its ‘gestational service’ changes the reality. Commissioning parents want a baby not a service, the baby is the ‘end product’.
Surrogacy as a practice developed from the demand of wealthy, infertile people to have exclusive parenthood of a biological child.

1. exploiting women as baby making machines does not advance women’s rights
2. The child’s right to have a relationship with all its parents are disregarded
3. It perpetuates that same old structural injustice where poor/ vulnerable women are used for the benefit of the wealthy – the power imbalance in surrogacy is a key argument ‘Using a surrogate’ means replacing the only mother a child has ever known. “People who seek a surrogate have a very specific desire…it is not only a desire to raise a child, but also a demand that the mother be absent.” ~ Kajsa Ekis Ekman “Being and Being Bought”

This is the website:

stopsurrogacynowuk.org/2021/04/22/welcome-to-stop-surrogacy-now-uk/

@OhHolyJesus none of those posters asked for that information you insisted on providing or for you to push adoption.

They asked for people with experience of surrogacy to post to give their views as they are interested in pursuing surrogacy. You have no interest in helping anyone pursue surrogacy. You police those boards to intimidate women away from surrogacy. You don’t post to help those women. Be honest at least about your intentions.

Is it policing or is it having a different opinion?

Its all well and good believing you are doing the right thing when you are asking an echo chamber.

If you are considering buying a person then I really do think you need to look at both sides of the coin.

You seem to have self-appointed yourself to police those boards.

I would reject that and suggest you have self-appointed yourself as the police for this thread.

So long as we're here, I will say, I make no secret of not supporting surrogacy. You can blame Mumsnet for me taking that view, since I largely supported it in the past before I actually thought about what it was and what it involves. It was only when I saw threads about the law commissions proposals in their consultation document that I realised what it meant for the law in the U.K.

I don't discourage debate or conversation on the subject, but if you don't feel able to explain your reasoning then that's fine, you can simply disagree or you can accuse me of being a stalker and of intimidating women is also fine.

I've seen similar tactics elsewhere used to silence women on various subjects. I will never understand why throwing around an accusation of something would be effective in stopping us from talking about it but I can see why people want us to stop talking about something where we disagree.

none of those posters asked for that information you insisted on providing or for you to push adoption.

For my point 3, here is the OP. See the last sentence and then see my post. Then please point out where I am intimidating the OP.

"One of my very good friends has been trying for a baby with her husband for many many years. They have been told that IVF isn't an option for them for health reasons on my friends part.

I'm considering offering to be a surrogate but am very unsure about it. I have a one year old son following a straightforward pregnancy and birth. I love my son to bits and dont know how how able I would be to carry their baby without loving it as my own (even though I know it would'nt be my own). I'd absolutely love to be able to help my friend if possible, to have the baby she is so desperate to have. They would make the most fantastic parents.

I almost feel like I need counselling to establish if this is something I'm capable of! Does anyone have any advice on this? It would be great to hear from any other surrogates about how you coped with the separation stage.

Also, i dont even know if surrogacy is an option for my friend and how/ when it would be best to bring this up (if I decide I am capable of it). Thanks very much for any advice you can give."

@OhHolyJesus gosh so I watch this one thread and post and I’m policing the thread but you watch, wait and pounce on every thread on the surrogacy board and you reject that you’re policing the board. That’s interesting you use the same tactics to silence women discussing surrogacy as you’ve seen elsewhere.

Another example

Offering to be a surrogate with no dc www.mumsnet.com/Talk/surrogacy/3925792-Offering-to-be-a-surrogate-with-no-dc

I check in on all my fave boards and post where I want. Sometimes daily. Sometimes throughout the day if I'm bored. Sometimes I have something to offer re surrogacy as I read a lot on the subject. Sometimes I scroll right past as I haven't time to formulate a response.

I never discourage anyone from posting anything! By sharing something they don't want to hear I'm silencing women?

Equally everyone posting can ignore me. I'm not the Mumsnet surrogacy police, but I do alert MNHQ to illegal activity as it is their platform and something they should be aware of, HQ can then decide to let it stand or delete it.

I think I've offered enough examples now of how I engage reasonably and again, I make no secret of being against surrogacy from a feminist point of view and because I centre children (in this case newborn babies), you have offered nothing but accusations.

PS you know I'm not the only one who thinks surrogacy is horrible right? This thread and the others I have shared demonstrates that.

[quote ForeverAintEnough12]**@OhHolyJesus* gosh so I watch this one thread and post and I’m policing the thread but you watch, wait and pounce on every* thread on the surrogacy board and you reject that you’re policing the board. That’s interesting you use the same tactics to silence women discussing surrogacy as you’ve seen elsewhere.[/quote]
I'm intrigued Forever - you seem quite focused on some people's posting patterns.

You do realise that this is a discussion forum where people can share ideas and information?

Can I ask, what is your position on surrogacy (sorry, I haven't really understood your interest in this) - do you have some info to share? This is such a huge subject - I am just scratching the surface of understanding - can you help me with some key points?

I would reject that and suggest you have self-appointed yourself as the police for this thread.

I will retract, apologise and rephrase that actually.

You seem to be policing only my posts and have not engaged with others posters who have tried to engage with you directly.

@OhHolyJesus the surrogacy board is one of your fave boards.... One of your fave boards is women asking for help , advice and experiences of something you abhor? doubtful. You post on that board to intimidate women away from surrogacy. Just admit it.

@PiglingBlandIII I’m afraid I attempted to give my views on surrogacy on this board previously where I was jumped on quite nastily by posters for daring to say I didn’t think it was black and white. It got quite horrible. I won’t make the same mistake again.

Re @OhHolyJesus she keeps responding directly to me - so I respond back. And yes I do find it extremely odd that someone with no experience of surrogacy and no intention of ever doing surrogacy keeps such a close eye on the surrogacy board. Definitely an agenda there in my opinion...

Yes it's a favourite board as in one of the boards you tag for quick reference.

Alongside the adoption board. It saves in scrolling. I like to read what people say about both. And also chat and AIBU. As I have already said upthread.

I also read the donor conception board.

These are all subjects in interested in so of course I tag them in my favourites so to get to them quickly.

Definitely an agenda there in my opinion...

You are correct. My agenda is to read what people are saying and sometimes to engage. As I've already made clear. That is my 'agenda'.

What's yours?

Disclaimer: You are entitled to your opinion.

no intention of ever doing surrogacy

Oh I don't know maybe I'll be persuaded by posters such as yourself and others and see how beautiful and lovely it is and feel compelled to be kind and offer my womb up for rental so to fulfil my purpose in life.

All of the boards on Mumsnet are public, so I don't see any issue with posters dropping in on them. There are other forums available for those who want more privacy. I think this is a bit of a derail from the issues at hand. Which haven't been addressed. There are some serious ethical issues with surrogacy becoming commercialised in the UK, so let's talk about whether that's appropriate...

No its not appropriate.

Buying humans apparently is only appropriate if they are babies....

@OhHolyJesus

Yes it's a favourite board as in one of the boards you tag for quick reference.

Alongside the adoption board. It saves in scrolling. I like to read what people say about both. And also chat and AIBU. As I have already said upthread.

I also read the donor conception board.

These are all subjects in interested in so of course I tag them in my favourites so to get to them quickly.

All I can say is this is incredibly odd. Do you like to offer gems such as ‘have you heard of adoption’ on the donor conception board too?

They asked for people with experience of surrogacy to post to give their views as they are interested in pursuing surrogacy.

Are they only allowed to hear responses from those with a positive experience? Posters who have read widely and and are able to link to a variety of resources such as articles, blogs, documentaries and podcasts are able to give an insight into some of the pitfalls and reasons for caution. Unfortunately there are some posters who will only offer a sugar coated viewpoint which does a disservice to those seeking more information.

This woman, for instance, thought she had researched surrogacy thoroughly before agreeing to be a surrogate for friends. She had a terrible experience and there were many things she was unaware of when she embarked on the process.

nordicmodelnow.org/2020/01/29/i-was-an-altruistic-surrogate-and-am-now-against-all-surrogacy/

@PiglingBlandIII I’m afraid I attempted to give my views on surrogacy on this board previously where I was jumped on quite nastily by posters for daring to say I didn’t think it was black and white. It got quite horrible. I won’t make the same mistake again.

I don't think I've seen nastiness from anyone - do give me some hints on your thoughts though

Do you like to offer gems such as ‘have you heard of adoption’ on the donor conception board too?

Thanks for the biscuit.

I invite everyone here to look at the donor conception board and adoption board and check for any posts from me there.

Adoption is a regulated and supported way to having a family. It is complicated and stressful as is my understanding due to my reading of the adoption board, but legal and possible and I personally think a truly wonderful thing (though not purely so, there are issues there too, but this thread is about surrogacy, not adoption...)

I think you'll find my 'gems' expressed with a tad more detail and referencing useful, factual information, as already demonstrated but you clearly aren't paying much attention to those posts as they don't fit your narrative about me being intimidating.

This is tedious now Forever. I'll leave you to your conspiracy theories and perhaps to engage with others who are trying to engage with you. See them? The other people here?

Goodnight.

Let's talk about some of the risks shall we? Multiple births: from the maternity and midwifery forum...

"The NHS has a duty of care to make sure women offering to be surrogate mothers, and any babies they gestate, to ensure that they are protected from multiple birth"

"They decided to have twins so they could both be fathers."

"One woman who was a surrogate mother for friends said: "I was persuaded to have two embryos implanted. I now realise I did not understand the increased risks for myself of carrying and giving birth to twins."

It is not homophobic to question whether commercial surrogacy is in the best interests of women (you know - actual people) and babies.

https://www.maternityandmidwifery.co.uk/events-2020/downloads/wales-sw/posters/MMFWalessSW20200PosterElizabethh_Purslow.pdf

I am completely against the monetisation of surrogacy, but I have seen an example of it working.
Two of my cousins both female, sisters to each other. One was in a car accident in her late teens that almost killed her, it didn't but it took her a long time to learn to walk again, she lost her spleen and a kidney, her pelvis was so badly shattered she was told and later in life it was confirmed she'd never be able to carry a child. Her pelvis wouldn't bear the weight. Her sister had two children in her early/mid twenties, enjoyed pregnancy and was in good health. She later became a surrogate (she offered they didn't ask and it was something they all thought and talked about for a long time before making a decision) for the first sister and her husband. She was a SAHM and her husband earns well, there was no loss of income to compensate and my other cousin her sister whose biological baby it would be, picked up the slack with childcare etc. Now both of my cousins have the children they dreamed of, they are still very close and the child born of the surrogacy is aware of what happened and why. The child is biologically her parents', her aunt carried and gave birth to her. I think in circumstances like that it's ok. Everyone went into it with their eyes open, the child knows exactly who they are, will grow up with her aunt/surrogate, yes there was a risk to my older cousin's health should anything happen in the pregnancy but they were risks that were well considered and balanced, and minimal given her physical health etc.

@TheLoneRager I doubt they only want positive experiences but definitely would want actual experiences as opposed to random people posting their views.

@PiglingBlandIII why would I give you ‘hints’ on my thoughts? So you can go on the attack? Been there, done that, got the t shirt.

@OhHolyJesus I wonder if posters on these very sensitive boards such as donor conception who are reaching out hoping to connect with others going through the same thing know that people like you who have no idea what they’re going through are almost vouyeristically reading their threads 🤢 also very odd that all your faves centre around families with fertility issues....

Goodnight to you all. I’ll leave you to your echo chamber.

I am sure there are many positive and reassuring stories of altruistic surrogacy in the UK. What checks and balances would we put in place if the commercialisation of Surrogacy were to be implemented here (which is under consideration):

"Financially and socially vulnerable women can be targets for surrogacy recruitment, attracted by the sums of money on offer. A surrogate in Ukraine, for example, can earn up to $20,000 (£15,507) - more than eight times the average yearly income.

However, there have been reports of poor treatment of surrogate mothers, with some agencies refusing to pay surrogates if they do not obey strict requirements or if they miscarry.

Exploitation concerns have led to many countries shutting down their previously booming surrogacy industries, while last year the UN warned that "commercial surrogacy... usually amounts to the sale of children".

Surrogacy: Why the world needs rules for 'selling' babies www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47826356

I'm glad to see this campaign. I think the proposed move in the U.K. to a more commercial US-style model is very much not in the best interests of women or children.

Now we know how important bonding pre-birth and the 4th trimester is, it seems astounding that people can just cast aside the importance of those because it suits them.

Trust women. We are not idiots. We don't need anyone to tell us what we can or cannot do with our bodies.