New feminist campaign "Stop Surrogacy Now"

[RabbitOfCaerbannog]

A new feminist campaign has been set up against the commodification of babies and women's wombs for rent - Stop Surrogacy Now. Looks like an important cause to get behind. From Stop Surrogacy Now's home page:

Surrogacy is the social practice where a woman is ‘used’ for her body, her fertility and reproductive capacity to grow and birth a baby without the intention of being a mother to that child and giving that baby away, or ‘gifting’ that child to ‘Intended Parents’.
We see Surrogacy is the sale of a child where any profit is made. No amount of pretending its ‘gestational service’ changes the reality. Commissioning parents want a baby not a service, the baby is the ‘end product’.
Surrogacy as a practice developed from the demand of wealthy, infertile people to have exclusive parenthood of a biological child.

1. exploiting women as baby making machines does not advance women’s rights
   
2. The child’s right to have a relationship with all its parents are disregarded
   
3. It perpetuates that same old structural injustice where poor/ vulnerable women are used for the benefit of the wealthy – the power imbalance in surrogacy is a key argument
   ‘Using a surrogate’ means replacing the only mother a child has ever known.
   “People who seek a surrogate have a very specific desire…it is not only a desire to raise a child, but also a demand that the mother be absent.” ~ Kajsa Ekis Ekman “Being and Being Bought”
   
   This is the website:
   
   stopsurrogacynowuk.org/2021/04/22/welcome-to-stop-surrogacy-now-uk/

[EmeraldShamrock]

The beauty of a contract is that it is negotiable. The surrogate mother can if she has doubts, put in her contract that she has the right to keep the baby if she changes her mind.
I'd imagine the contract would have a hefty financial clause the birth mother would be liable for in the event.
Generally I doubt they bond with the baby during pregnancy it's business and not their biological DC.

[OhHolyJesus]

@PlanDeRaccordement

The beauty of a contract is that it is negotiable. The surrogate mother can if she has doubts, put in her contract that she has the right to keep the baby if she changes her mind.

The contract would be agreed by both parties, why would commissioning parents sign a contract agreeing to the surrogate mother keeping the baby if she changes her mind? What if she doesn't regret it until afterwards? What if those maternal instincts don't kick in until after the pregnancy and she realises she's made a terrible mistake, but she is legally bound by a water-right contract? I guess it's just her tough luck and life goes on...

US contracts where commercial surrogacy is like the Wild West in some states, includes breast milk pumping, diet and no-sex clauses. I've read examples where the surrogate mother gets a daily bonus for sticking to the diet the commissioning parents detail in the contract, though how they would know I don't know.

As your view is that a baby has no connection to their mother before birth I'm wondering what you make of this story which involves an aunt and uncle taking care of the baby in America whilst the genetic and commissioning parents are in China. The surrogate mother isn't mentioned.

The little boy, Eli, is now 13 months old and a foreign exchange student who is able to travel will collect him and deliver him to his parents, a bit like an extreme version of an international courier.

www.kxxv.com/brazos/surrogate-baby-stays-with-aunt-and-uncle-in-brazos-valley-throughout-the-pandemic?fbclid=IwAR1chbDPY41HEfGE309Np62jsaJEKKOAut4wnRFfJDJFDcnvkaylvYnymiA

(Also, just as a reminder, I'm still keen to know how many commissioning parents have been prosecuted for breaking surrogacy laws in France and I await your book recommendation to read how mothers and babies don't bond during pregnancy.)

[OhHolyJesus]

Just sharing this with you @Lelophants

"Just ask some of the children themselves. “There are a lot of days …where I feel adrift, kind of like a tumbleweed... It’s days like today where my heart hurts a bit more over a surrogacy agency, doctors, lawyers, and the rest of the adults involved not successfully making sure that this product they were creating would be o.k.,” writes “jkiam83” an anonymous surrogate-born woman on her blog. “Where are the resources and communities for us products of surrogacy? [I]s this really what is in the best interest of a child?” From the perspective of Brian, a surrogate-born man, it’s not; he writes, “It looks to me like I was bought and sold.” 

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/how-surrogacy-harms-women-and-children-184366

(I'm not sure of the source, it's probably a right wing outlet, but as it's rare you even have someone touch on the harms and have quotes from surrogate-born children, I thought I'd share.)

[FannyCann]

You are quite right @OhHolyJesus and I should put away thoughts of house trained puppies.

Seriously, any child that age will surely come with a load of baggage or they wouldn't be put up for adoption and I admire anyone who is prepared to learn and train and commit to give such a child their best life.

[OhHolyJesus]

I was a bit at that too Fanny, but I am pleased that there is at least one celebrity who is considering adoption over and above surrogacy. The message from celebrities and mainstream media appears to me to be that surrogacy is the go to option for anyone unable or unwilling to 'use' their own body to make a baby.

As older kids aren't the top choice for adoptees I was pleased to see her opt for an older child and not the 'blank canvas' baby to 'imprint on' as we know no baby is a blank canvas.

[FannyCann]

Sorry, please don't flame me for joking about a serious matter but this has just made me laugh (not in a good way).


"I'm taking parenting classes now so I can adopt. I'm looking at [ages] five and up, really like seven. I want them to be able to use the restroom on their own and talk."

[OhHolyJesus]

Just saw this - she sold her eggs at 21 because she needed the money.

As Tiffany spent time in foster care and wants to adopt a child (not a baby) and as she doesn't want to get pregnant the question of surrogacy came up as naturally this is the expected route for celebrities

The egg donation experience must have stayed with her all these years, it reminded me of this young woman:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-9539145/Tiffany-Haddish-41-reveals-surrogacy-not-sold-eggs-21.html

[OhHolyJesus]

Also

My Surrogacy Journey (the Ellis-Johnsons)

And

British Surrogacy Centre (the Drewitt Barlows)

Facebook seems to have international rules but surely there should be some restrictions based on U.K. law? They could simply be filtered out.

[CovoidOfAllHumanity]

brilliant beginnings
COTS
Seem to offer UK surrogates

Also there appear to be UK agencies that put you in touch with US and Ukraine surrogates that appear with ad banners
on a Google search

[Bluesername]

The pink and blue surrogacy ad looks to be from the US (Happy Thanksgiving).

a quick google brings up a number of UK agencies despite commercial surrogacy apparently not being a thing in the UK.

Which ones?

[EmeraldShamrock]

Those advertisements are grim preying on vulnerable woman.

[CovoidOfAllHumanity]

That is grim

I wanted to check if surrogacy was advertised like this in the UK and yes a quick google brings up a number of UK agencies despite commercial surrogacy apparently not being a thing in the UK.

The typical payment is apparently 12-20,000 in the UK. I would in no way consider that adequate compensation for a year of my life and all the risks involved I have to say.

[FannyCann]

#GestationalCarriersRus

[FannyCann]

Have just come across this surrogacy agency on Instagram.

https://instagram.com/pinkbluesurro?igshid=1blw1e38dcch3

This is the future.

[Delphinium20]

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Delphinium20

You organ donation scenario is way off. No, we do not allow organ donation that results in certain death. But we do allow organ donation ‘at their peril’ as in with risk of injury and death. For example the surgery to donate a kidney has a 3 in 10,000 death rate for the donor.

That’s three times higher than a U.K. woman’s 1 in 10,000 deaths in childbirth.

So yeah, being a surrogate mother has 1/3rd the risk of death than being a kidney donor.[/quote]
It's not apples to apples, no. We accept risks to live organ donators because they donate to save lives

Organ donation has far more protections and ethical studies done than surrogacy and most certainly than sperm or egg donation. Women who donate their wombs and eggs put their own lives and health at risk, yet they are not taking these risks to save lives!!!! IIRC, the most ethics boards on surrogacy and gamete donation are agency-founded...they are clearly biased. In contrast, organ donation ethics boards are neutral parties and far more robust.

You are asking women to risk their lives and health, but, unlike organ donation, the recipient risks nothing, loses nothing.

[Pota2]

How will it possibly negatively impact on women if they can’t sell their wombs? They can surely find other ways of making money and it doesn’t even earn you that much anyway. I’m sure your DD won’t be psychologically traumatised if she can’t sell a baby. Just as she won’t be if she can’t sell an organ to the highest bidder.

It’s not at all about the surrogate’s right to be a surrogate. It’s all about the people who want to buy babies having a ready supply available to them. Don’t pretend otherwise.

[Delphinium20]

*here is the U.S.

[Delphinium20]

I really caution UK women on the fence with surrogacy and egg donation to imagine your young, university-aged DD being bombarded with advertising to 'be kind' and 'give the gift of life'. That's what happens here.

My own daughter, at the AGE OF 15, was bombarded with egg donation advertising after doing a lot of college searches online.

nordicmodelnow.org/2021/02/21/egg-donation-empowering-really/

[Delphinium20]

I have 2 DDs. One is an adult. What I wish for her is that she have the legal right to choose to sell an egg or be surrogate mother if she wanted to. And along with a legal right, to have a regulatory framework with laws and enforceable surrogacy contracts that protect her rights throughout the pregnancy, birth and post birth recovery

This is extraordinary to me. What mother wants her DD to go through surrogacy?!?!?!?

Also, knowing the invasive and risky procedure of egg retrieval (my sister did IVF w/ her own eggs - after one lucky try, she refused to do it again), I would strongly caution any young woman to NEVER DO THIS. There are documented cases of women who did and later became infertile. Why would I want my DD's CHILD out in the world, my grandchild? At least with adoption, your DD would potentially get to help choose the adopting parents.

www.yourtango.com/2015282227/why-i-severely-regret-donating-my-eggs

[Maggiesfarm]

I have 2 DDs. One is an adult. What I wish for her is that she have the legal right to choose to sell an egg or be surrogate mother if she wanted to. And along with a legal right, to have a regulatory framework with laws and enforceable surrogacy contracts that protect her rights throughout the pregnancy, birth and post birth recovery.

That is a very unusual thing for a mother to want for her daughter. I do not know anyone, including me, who would want their daughter to sell ova or be a surrogate mother. Neither would I want my son to sell his sperm to a sperm bank. If they need extra money, they can ask me.

[FannyCann]

Adverts that relentlessly target healthy young women to risk their health for the benefit of others.

I will be appalled if the current ban on advertising is lifted, as proposed by the Law Commissioners.

www.heyreprotech.com/p/ads-that-target-young-women

[FannyCann]

Two DD's. Apologies already for typos!

[FannyCann]

I have 2 DDs. One is an adult. What I wish for her is that she have the legal right to choose to sell an egg or be surrogate mother if she wanted to. And along with a legal right, to have a regulatory framework with laws and enforceable surrogacy contracts that protect her rights throughout the pregnancy, birth and post birth recovery.

I also have to DDs, both young adults. What I wish for them is to have jobs they enjoy and good health. I don't want them to feel the on,y way they can earn some extra cash is by selling the use of their bodies to others - be that selling eggs, uterus for rent or through sex services (though I don't want to derail the thread on that one, there are plenty of other threads about sex "work").

I don't want their social media to be full of advertisements exhorting them to "be kind" "be amazing" sell the gift of eggs/a baby. Funny how it's only young women that are targeted to "be kind" I'm not aware of young men being told the lie that they must be amazing by selling the use of their body. (Yes I know there are make prostitutes, as I said, don't let's derail the thread).

I fail to see how enforceable contracts give any protection - quite the reverse. The only thing that is enforceable currently, and is expected to remain enforceable, is the right to extract full payment. The law commissioners are quite clear, if commissioning parents renege on the deal and decide they don't want the baby after all, then social services with pick up the pieces in the same way as they do if parents of any other baby reject it at birth (which I have seen in the case of a Down's syndrome baby). If the surrogate mother wants to keep the baby then that will be an option. (Funny how she will suddenly be the mother after all in the instance where she wants to keep a baby that the CP's no longer want).

As regards for protections for the SM should she change her mind and want to keep the baby - as you suggested up thread:

No. The beauty of a contract is that it is negotiable. The surrogate mother can if she has doubts, put in her contract that she has the right to keep the baby if she changes her mind.

The whole point of a major part of the proposed changes is to assign legal parentage in advance of the birth precisely to avoid this scenario, so I can't see contracts saying "of course if you change your mind that will be fine and your right, no problem" being a thing. A major reason for the judges' decision regarding the case of the woman who has been awarded compensation of £500k to go to California to have four surrogate babies was that there she can be sure the contract is enforceable whereas in the U.K. there is the risk the SM may change her mind.

The other thing is that possession is 9/10 of the law. Whoever takes the baby home with them....and BONDS with the baby, and the baby with them is much more likely to be viewed sympathetically by the courts who must act in the child's best interests, so that removing the child from its primary carers will be unlikely to be considered a good idea. Obviously there are other factors that will be taken into consideration as well.

Without trawling through all the cases that have been in the public sphere I think the majority have sided with the commissioning parents for whatever reason/s. Money, education and social standing being a big part of those reasons.

[Pota2]

Some stupid and inaccurate comments about contracts for children working on here. This is nothing like surrogacy. It’s actually impossible for a court to force someone to provide personal services under a contract. If I (or a child actor) refuse to come to work, my employer can sue me for damages for breach of contract. They can in no way physically compel me to do anything. The reason why this is is that the courts feel that to have the power to physically compel someone to do something would be akin to slavery.

So, child actors having contracts is zero like surrogacy. Also, children can enter into contracts but the contracts can’t be enforced against them. Every time a minor child goes shopping they are entering into contracts. It doesn’t require a parent to sign on their behalf. The private school analogy is also nonsense. The child is not the subject of a contract there either. The parents are simply paying for the child to be educated. If they don’t pay, the school won’t educate the child but it’s absolutely nothing like making the child itself a commodity.

Ask yourself why so many European countries have banned surrogacy and why the UK, which is traditionally more like the USA in terms of favouring individual liberty over human rights wants to allow it at the same time as advocating a general roll-back on human rights.

Nobody needs surrogacy and people cannot consent to everything they want. Actually I’d rather that people could choose to end their lives through euthanasia but that is disallowed for moral reasons, despite sometimes causing undue suffering. I don’t think a woman being told that she can’t sell a baby in any way constrains her rights. Nor can she sell her kidney. Just the way it is. Surrogacy is of course not about the surrogate at all. It is absolutely the fact that some people can’t or won’t accept that they can’t have children naturally. That is understandably difficult for them and I empathise with their pain. However, that doesn’t entitle them to purchase a baby from someone else. A person doesn’t need children to lead a fulfilling life and it would be good if we as a culture stopped telling people that they can have literally whatever thing they want and at any cost.

Read about the Drewitt-Barlows and their situation. The way they discuss getting more kids is as if they are talking about buying sheep. The fathers have split after one of them shacked up with their daughter’s boyfriend. Very soon after that, daughters’ boyfriend plus dad 1 had a baby by surrogate. Dad 2 is dying of cancer but wants another baby by surrogate first. Oh and dad 1 once saw a model on the catwalk and paid her 30k for her eggs which they then used. It’s really grim. The daughter says she also wants to use a surrogate to have kids despite having no health issues. That’s pretty messed up.

[CovoidOfAllHumanity]

I am scared for those young women in Ukraine and India who are tempted to engage in this because of the money they are offered.

Risks rise the more pregnancies you have. From your 5th pregnancy onwards it's acknowledged risks are high of unstable lie, preterm delivery, PPH and other risks and if some of those pregnancies were multiple it would be easy to escalate risks
Many of these women are not just doing this once.

What if later in life you want your own family and you can't because you required an emergency hysterectomy for a surrogate pregnancy?