Asexuality

[NettleTea]

So I know asexuality is a thing. Low sex drive diminishing to nowt. Or a low libido that often doesnt get airtime because the media would have it that its the normal state of affairs for everyone to be gagging for it 24/7

Or hand in hand with things like ASD

Or developes because you are in a sexually unfulfilling relationship and if you dont use it, etc.

It can come and go, or can be a constant

However Ive seen a fair bit of it being included now in teaching materials for schools, and I wondered if this was due to trying to normalise the absence of sexual feeling so that children who undergo hormone replacement and puberty blockers, and as a result have no developement of normal sexual feelings wont know that its not very unusual in teens/young 20s. Its only fairly recently that this loss/absence of sexual function/drive has been coming to light, and its only recently that teaching about asexuality has been included in the curriculum.

In the end what activism is needed to improve things for asexual people?

And I sound horrible but what are the tangible issues that support groups are needed for, that don't have a massive overlap with the issues/ experiences of loads of other people who don't identify as asexual.

I have read it all.

I am sorry you are having a bad time. I can see you haven't really understood what I'm saying either. Maybe I didn't express myself very well.

If others are talking about their dating lives in your example, what do you want to say? If you could be out with them, and X and y are saying they had dates and this is what happened. What is it that you would say that you feel you can't at the moment?

@BertieBotts - interesting to hear your experience. This bit really resonated with me:

"But my god, I feel lucky that I was one of those early-00s internet kids because it meant once I discovered that as an "identity" I had language to process what was happening to me, what I was feeling, why it felt different, but most importantly why I wasn't wrong or broken."

I felt like this too, and I imagine that thousands of other people who discovered the AVEN asexuality website in the early 2000s and since have felt the same.

I admire posters who weren't at all bothered by their lack of sexual desire in their teens and early 20s. I wish I had been like that. I'm all in favour of a wholesale reworking of our society and culture so that young people who lack a sex drive don't feel lost and ashamed. But in the meantime... what on earth is wrong with letting people define themselves, when there is no impact on others?

But no one should be saying to anyone why are you single. It's fucking rude.

Think of some good come backs!

Take a bit of power back, you know. They're the ones who are being utter dicks.

Lots of sympathy, @YouShouldLeave. It is hard. Have you tried posting on AVEN? There will be lots of people there who understand exactly how you feel. Maybe some real-life meet-ups too, after Covid.

www.asexuality.org/

Irene for me it's because the labels all have a starting point that randy fuck anything is normal.

It isn't.

The norm could be eg Demi sexual or fluid or something a bit more true for the population.

The fact that only wanting sex with someone you know fancy and trust has a special label is. Implies it's not normal or standard, you know? And I think that's not good.

Also I think plenty of young people are having sex before they really want it iyswim. Due to curiousity, pressure, everyone else is going it etc.

The idea that 16yo girls who are having sex are doing it because they really want it and are really frisky iyswim is not true. Loads are just doing it. And that's not right either.

Add in the effects of porn and the pill and really in how many het sex encounters are really wanting it and feeling the same about it as an older woman? So that's another corrosive idea.

It's all interlinked for me and I think the root causes of all of these pressures assumptions need working on.

A girl shouldn't have to say she's Xsexual to not have sex. She should be able to say no and he says ok fine. But it's the same isn't it. Nothing has changed. If anything it's got worse.

@NiceGerbil

I have read it all.

I am sorry you are having a bad time. I can see you haven't really understood what I'm saying either. Maybe I didn't express myself very well.

If others are talking about their dating lives in your example, what do you want to say? If you could be out with them, and X and y are saying they had dates and this is what happened. What is it that you would say that you feel you can't at the moment?

I can’t talk about how i can’t find anyone who would go an a date with me.

Can’t talk about the time when a man told me i was useless to a man, cause i can’t have sex.

Can’t talk about my lonliness, if i do, i get told to go out meet people - date, okey how, where do i find people who are okey being without sex.

When they ask about my type, can they set me up with....., how about.......Let’s find you someone.....etc.
When i’m told i have to give someone a change.
I would like to tell the truth.
To say yeah, i’m cool, but fyi i only feel romantic attraction, not sexual.

Now i avoid questions and lie by saying that i’m not really interested in a relationships.

I don’t view myself oppressed or victim or having the worst faith out here, just different than many (most).

Why i would like asexuality to be more known is just that, that people know we exist, and so that we can find eachother.
And that no one else would have to think they are alone or broken or inhumane or weird or wrong.

[quote IrenetheQuaint]Lots of sympathy, @YouShouldLeave. It is hard. Have you tried posting on AVEN? There will be lots of people there who understand exactly how you feel. Maybe some real-life meet-ups too, after Covid.

www.asexuality.org/[/quote]
Thank you.

I’ve lurked on AVEN, didn’t really like it (when i was reading there, most seem to be either demi’s or ”sex positives”), so i could not relate, made me feel even lonelier.

Reddit has a little better communities i find.

I live in nordic country, so no meet up’s for me, but i really appreciate it, thanks.

Non asexual people who want to be single/ have given up/ had an awful relationship get all that as well.

I just think it's rude.

Men are bastards to women all the fucking time.

My friend who is 50 and lives with her cats gets all those questions plus why did you decide not to have children don't you think you're missing out. What will happen when you get old etc. It's appalling. And yes of course it upsets her.

I just think that segmenting into loads of tiny groups and the assumption that those people are like this and they won't get it is really fragmenting people who share similar problems at different points that all come from the same attitudes in wider society.

That being coupled up is the be all and end all.
That for women snaring a man and having babies is a massive achievement and all they really want. That one who doesn't have that has essentially failed. And must be miserable.
That people especially women and girls who have sex are therefore sexually mature, experiencing desire, enjoying it etc.

That sort of stuff.

I understand it's hard to meet people who will be ok with no sex well especially if you are female and fancy men. Some men do have low sex drives though. Some aren't really interested at all. Despite what popular culture says.
But that aside you experience romantic attraction. The site suggested sounds good. There must be more. I know internet dating is a sod. But still. It might be interesting. And as you do experience romantic attraction then if and when you date then you'll have tales.

It's boring the preoccupation with couples etc tbh. Find some friends who don't go on about that- they do exist!

In the end I suppose having all these groups saying we're all different just plays into the hands of those who get to carry on as normal and not have their behaviour criticised.

I'm not trying to be mean I just have so many thoughts on this and how it fragments and also links in with a lot of rubbish stuff in society.

It's general rather than about you iyswim so I hope that's ok.

I agree with a lot of what you say, @NiceGerbil, but it will take decades to sort all of these issues out (if we ever can), and there is a value to supporting people in the meantime.

Sorry to hear that AVEN has been taken over by "sex positive" posters, @YouShouldLeave. When I was on it (a LONG time ago) pretty much everyone there identified as properly asexual (that is, celibate and lacking sexual desire).

We've been trying to sort them out forever really.

And it's two steps forward one step back.

I would like for no teen/ young person male or female to feel they have something wrong with them if they don't feel sexual desire.

I just feel like a lot of different problems stem from the same roots and all the sort of separation and in some cases almost hostility between them just drives wedges where there should/ could be common ground and common goals.

It's divide and conquer iyswim.

That's not to do with you personally obviously but a general, well, worry I suppose.

The no teen bit was an example.

Groups who used to be natural allies and work together for changes that benefited one or many, are now fighting non stop.

Who does all this benefit? Who is off the background with the spotlight averted? The ideas attitudes and beliefs that cause all the trouble in the first place and the people who benefit from that.

What if asexuals would like to ”just be” and be able to say the truth, that they are, in fact, asexuals.

It’s just easier and more simple that way.

Also, relationship without sex, isin’t deep friendship, it’s a (romantic) relationship/partnership.

By romantic, do you mean in the sense of medieval romance? Or something else?

You're kind of begging the question there, with regard to the legitimacy of this identity label of "asexual".

What people are suggesting is that it's not only constructed, it's constructed on pretty flimsy grounds. It has a certain amount of medical use, maybe, in that it might be more legitimate than something like demisexual. But not everything is an identity.

Just being is pretty much the opposite of applying labels.

I haven't seen anyone saying it's constructed? There have always been people who aren't interested in sex/ coupling up.

I have seen people questioning whether people who feel that way and feel out of place in a society which is sex obsessed etc will gain anything from asexuality being more widely recognised and understood. And my feeling is the challenges are different in particular to what lesbians and gay men have faced and continue to face globally. And have a big overlap with lots of people who do not identify as asexual.

To see people on twitter getting angry because an LGB group 'excluded' asexual people was just really unsettling tbh.

People who are same sex attracted are still beaten, murdered, ostracised, laws exist to say it's punishable by death. It's still a massive issue.

Feelings of being different, lonely and not understood are really hard obviously. Sometimes intolerably hard. But I don't imagine it's illegal anywhere to be asexual and you're not going to get your head kicked in walking down the high street.

I know that sounds harsh but it's true. And I really feel that dividing people who could work together to change attitudes is something that only helps the dominant social view. It challenges nothing.

For real change you have to fight. Really fight. The idea that it will take decades to change stuff so let's just have this feels like a bit of a cop out tbh. And maybe suggests that the things aren't major enough to fight for?

That's not what constructed means. It's not about teh underlying reality, whether or not some people are, either short term or long term, interested in sex.

It's about the construction of the category. How we group things together. There can be valid useful reasons to create groupings. Other categories can be constructed for nefarious purposes. But they typically group together some sort of characteristic or something shared in some way.

Usually when you are talking about valid mental or psychological or medical categories you want them to correspond to some kind of real underlying connections or structures. Otherwise it tends to lead to incorrect thinking about the phenomena. I think it's pretty questionable that that applies in this case.

One of the notable things about the critical theory model is that is takes all these categories, like race and sexuality and gender - and essentialises them. Even the ones that were created in the most basic sense to justify discrimination or out-groups.

This is the opposite to what tends to be suggested both in many political models, and psychological, and religious models at the individual level, to create healthy social integration or integration of personality. The suggestion in all of these cases it that deconstructing the categories is how we come to know ourselves and have an integrated personality or society.

So the difference in terms of language and ideology between being a person who isn't all that interested in sex, or sausages, but is deeply committed to justice, and a demisexual activist foodie. At the level of daily speech the anguage isn't all that significant, but the tendency to define ourselves by these categories and labels, all of which are constructed, springs from a view of the self that is externalised to a high degree.

Musing - maybe that's why society is taking such an authoritarian turn, we've been moving from a model of the self that emphasises internal integration to one that emphasises external validation.

@SmokedDuck

What if asexuals would like to ”just be” and be able to say the truth, that they are, in fact, asexuals.

It’s just easier and more simple that way.

Also, relationship without sex, isin’t deep friendship, it’s a (romantic) relationship/partnership.

By romantic, do you mean in the sense of medieval romance? Or something else?

You're kind of begging the question there, with regard to the legitimacy of this identity label of "asexual".

What people are suggesting is that it's not only constructed, it's constructed on pretty flimsy grounds. It has a certain amount of medical use, maybe, in that it might be more legitimate than something like demisexual. But not everything is an identity.

Just being is pretty much the opposite of applying labels.

medieval, what?!? No, i mean modern kind of romance, when we have enough knowledge to know that romantic and sexual attractions are two seperate things.

I dont see what the problem is with someone saying theyre asexual, or how its a feminist issue?

⬆️Exactly.

NiceGerbil I totally agree asexual visibility/awareness is absolutely not in the same category as anti-prejudice for LGB people. The needs are simply not the same and there is no reason for them to be lumped in together.

But I don't have a problem with it being taught in schools. I think as a kind of "This is an OK way to be too" it is important.

Someone asked earlier if asexual awareness would stop teenage boys using terms like prude/frigid etc. Probably not, at least inasfar as teenage boys want sex and will use various techniques including shame to get it. But at least you wouldn't have it coming from all sides, sex ed when I was at school was all "We know you're insanely horny, but try to keep it in your pants and if you can't, here are the contraception options", there was no mention of "You might not feel ready for sex and that's fine."

When I was 17 the film "The 40 year old virgin" came out. This kind of shit is the kind of thing that makes you feel abnormal. It is absolutely fine for someone to be 40 and have never had sex. It shouldn't be something to laugh about.

” When I was 17 the film "The 40 year old virgin" came out. This kind of shit is the kind of thing that makes you feel abnormal. It is absolutely fine for someone to be 40 and have never had sex. It shouldn't be something to laugh about.”

Agreed.

Imagine if hollywood had made a movie called:
40 year old slut.

@IrenetheQuaint

I do wonder how many of the people on this thread who are sneering at asexuals/demisexuals have any understanding of what it is like to be a teenager/20-something who has no sexual desire or sexual identity. It feels very isolating and shameful. Much as you may think asexual/demisexual are terribly precious as labels, they are so much better than "frigid" or "abnormal".

Yes of course it would be great if we as a society could realise that sex drive fluctuates massively between and within people and that that is perfectly normal, but we are a long way from that point.

Me, jesus do you think you invented it or something?

Musing - maybe that's why society is taking such an authoritarian turn, we've been moving from a model of the self that emphasises internal integration to one that emphasises external validation.

That's an interesting thought.

The film '40 year old virgin' was grim beyond belief.

"No, i mean modern kind of romance, when we have enough knowledge to know that romantic and sexual attractions are two seperate things."

I don't agree that they are. You may have a romantic attraction towards someone that you don't want to be sexual with, but it's still a sexual attraction to some extent.