Asexuality

[NettleTea]

So I know asexuality is a thing. Low sex drive diminishing to nowt. Or a low libido that often doesnt get airtime because the media would have it that its the normal state of affairs for everyone to be gagging for it 24/7

Or hand in hand with things like ASD

Or developes because you are in a sexually unfulfilling relationship and if you dont use it, etc.

It can come and go, or can be a constant

However Ive seen a fair bit of it being included now in teaching materials for schools, and I wondered if this was due to trying to normalise the absence of sexual feeling so that children who undergo hormone replacement and puberty blockers, and as a result have no developement of normal sexual feelings wont know that its not very unusual in teens/young 20s. Its only fairly recently that this loss/absence of sexual function/drive has been coming to light, and its only recently that teaching about asexuality has been included in the curriculum.

There's not a history of beating people who are asexual up.

Exactly. An in fact there is the opposite history: Women have often been expected/required to be asexual (in addition to being required to have sex with whichever males claim the right). They have been persecuted and shamed (and beaten, and stoned to death etc etc) if they show an interest in sex.

Now they are persecuted and shamed if they don't show an interest in sex (as well as, paradoxically, still being shamed for liking sex).

None of this requires a label/identity to rectify it. The solution is simply for people to recognise the autonomy and difference of others and not to project their own needs/fantasies/judgements onto the objects of their sexual gaze.

I also wonder whether people are expecting something 'more' as an indication of desire in some cases, a masive uncontrollable feeling that fills your mind and is almost unbearable with your entire body on fire sort of thing. And so, when that doesnt happen they assume that they have none. It would account for the 'asexual but has lots of sex' group. Its as unattainable a feeling as a photoshopped model's body and face is an unattainable. Yet something akin to this is often portrayed as the norm when describing sexual attraction rather than the more mundane 'yeah I fancy them and now Ive started getting sexy Im quite turned on' which most people experience.

@loopsdefruit

Gwen scientific basis for what? For sexuality being innate, for asexuality existing, for the fact that people have used the arguments that homosexuality was caused by abuse or trauma as a justification for conversion therapy?

Also yes, people can make any comment they want, I just said I wish they wouldn't.

I would hope that if I came along and said the same about homosexuality that people would report my comment as being homophobic or call me out on it.

People can say what they want, but as an asexual person I can also express the harm that views like that cause and say that I wish people wouldn't say that.

Also evidence would suggest about 2% of the population are asexual, so yes it is a normal variation and it is not common but also it's vanishingly rare.

Only 2%? I would argue that all children are ‘asexual’, certainly pre puberty. In 2019, 12% of the UK population were under 10, and 18% were over 65. Clearly not all over 65s are ‘asexual’, but even if we put it at half that figure, that makes a total of 21% of the population. I think what you mean is that 2% of the population label themselves as ‘asexual’.

@Random789

There's not a history of beating people who are asexual up.

Exactly. An in fact there is the opposite history: Women have often been expected/required to be asexual (in addition to being required to have sex with whichever males claim the right). They have been persecuted and shamed (and beaten, and stoned to death etc etc) if they show an interest in sex.

Now they are persecuted and shamed if they don't show an interest in sex (as well as, paradoxically, still being shamed for liking sex).

None of this requires a label/identity to rectify it. The solution is simply for people to recognise the autonomy and difference of others and not to project their own needs/fantasies/judgements onto the objects of their sexual gaze.

Yes. We're expected to be up for sex but only with whichever man desires it with us at that time. And we can't appear to be too up for sex in case that indicates we might have been equally up for sex with men in the past.

It seems to me that some people are using asexual as a synonym for celibate or not securely interested in this particular person or not interested in a sexual relationship currently.

It's as ridiculous as applying labels such as demi sexual or whatever it is to describe wanting to know a person before having sex with them too.

Sexually not securely!

As WeeBisom said, asexual used to mean you didn’t feel sexual attraction; you didn’t feel sexual desire; and you did not have [consensual] sex. The only reason you need[ed] to talk about it was if you wanted to enter into a romantic relationship; & sometimes I suppose women might [have] mention[ed] it to HCPs in the context of explaining how it is they really REALLY do absolutely know for certain they’re DEFINITELY not pregnant & when they say they’re not having sex and haven’t had sex they do indeed really mean at all ever. Yes, “a pretty girl like them”. Support groups & university societies (etc) transforming into LGBTQIA “spaces” was that well-intentioned thing of extending resources to small groups who didn’t really fit there but needed somewhere...

Thing is, as we’ve seen on this thread it’s now evolved into an absolutely meaningless label. Furthermore, all the “asexuals [can] totally have lots of sex” business means that people who are asexual in that traditional sense (& frequently it’s not just some kind of polite “no thank you” to sex, it’s actual active revulsion at the mere idea; & a body that doesn’t Get On Board with the “right” physical responses to sex) & might want to try to pursue a relationship are, despite this seeming explosion in the asexual population & the waving of an actual flag honestly fortunes are to be made with all the associated environment-wrecking gubbins going to struggle to find a partner who feels the same way. And as we’ve seen elsewhere, asking too many questions is no longer allowed; & certainly you cannot say something that might make someone feel “invalid”, which in fact leaves the most vulnerable people of the subset vulnerable. (As it were.) To be clear, obviously nobody should be going about abusing other people; but we now seem to have tipped over to the point that saying things like “doctors are highly qualified experts” will get you torn to shreds in some online spaces. Big ones, I mean - so it can happen on Twitter, for example, in the same way other tweets sometimes get picked up & slammed down.

There is such a desperately worrying trend for needing endless labels - & seeking to identify as oppressed, too. The endless labels allow the construction of communities; but then No GaTeKeEpInG and EvErYoNe Is VaLiD now underpin everything & the people those communities were originally for end up talked over &/or pushed out (eg online spaces for discussion of/sharing resources to help with autism).

Sometimes it feels as if Instagram is to blame - labels to build a bio with; then hashtags to build a community; then chasing likes & wanting to build follower count & ideally become An Influencer. If you can’t be packaged to fit in a pigeonhole Who.Even.Are.You? (and obviously obviously none of it’s as simple as that, but all the social media stuff - Tik-Tock more than Insta now, of course - is very clearly hugely important in constructing identities in the C21 & communities & communication & conflict...).

For avoidance doubt, given section, am regular MNer, though Lurk FWR, & NCd for this post. Am not going to list things people list when they think they’re showing they’ve been on here for ages, because that’s silly & just shows you’ve seen a post like that & can C&P.

@lonel

better to teach young people how to address this head-on rather than needing an identity-based justification to say no. Agreed. At school I remember that girls who wouldn't have sex because of religious reasons were respected more than those who just didn't want to have sex. We should be teaching children that they don't need a label in order to set their own boundaries.

Yes, I did this all the time. Just said I was a Catholic for much of the same reason people might now say they're demisexual.

I do wonder how many of the people on this thread who are sneering at asexuals/demisexuals have any understanding of what it is like to be a teenager/20-something who has no sexual desire or sexual identity. It feels very isolating and shameful. Much as you may think asexual/demisexual are terribly precious as labels, they are so much better than "frigid" or "abnormal".

Yes of course it would be great if we as a society could realise that sex drive fluctuates massively between and within people and that that is perfectly normal, but we are a long way from that point.

I agree though that it makes no sense for people to identify as asexuals if they have fancy other people, have a sex drive and are enjoying regular sex. That is just odd.

@IrenetheQuaint

I do wonder how many of the people on this thread who are sneering at asexuals/demisexuals have any understanding of what it is like to be a teenager/20-something who has no sexual desire or sexual identity. It feels very isolating and shameful. Much as you may think asexual/demisexual are terribly precious as labels, they are so much better than "frigid" or "abnormal".

Yes of course it would be great if we as a society could realise that sex drive fluctuates massively between and within people and that that is perfectly normal, but we are a long way from that point.

I was that teenager. In my day it was known as being a late developer and was absolutely not a cause of shame. In my very late teens and 20s I started experimenting and discovered my adult sexual identity which I’m very happy with, thank you.

This is caused by the pressure on kids as young as primary age (when if they’re pre puberty they will be pretty much asexual!) to decide which box they fit in and identify themselves accordingly. In fact sexual desire, practice, and attraction both waxes and wanes over the course of most people’s lives, and can be really very fluid and changeable at different life stages. We need to stop telling kids they need to identify their sexual identity while they’re still in primary school, and start letting them grow and develop naturally.

This is caused by the pressure on kids as young as primary age (when if they’re pre puberty they will be pretty much asexual!) to decide which box they fit in and identify themselves accordingly. In fact sexual desire, practice, and attraction both waxes and wanes over the course of most people’s lives, and can be really very fluid and changeable at different life stages. We need to stop telling kids they need to identify their sexual identity while they’re still in primary school, and start letting them grow and develop naturally.

I agree. Children, and many young people, would be expected to be "asexual".

It's obviously different for adults.

@IrenetheQuaint

I do wonder how many of the people on this thread who are sneering at asexuals/demisexuals have any understanding of what it is like to be a teenager/20-something who has no sexual desire or sexual identity. It feels very isolating and shameful. Much as you may think asexual/demisexual are terribly precious as labels, they are so much better than "frigid" or "abnormal".

Yes of course it would be great if we as a society could realise that sex drive fluctuates massively between and within people and that that is perfectly normal, but we are a long way from that point.

Very well said.

Only it goes above teenage/20’s.
It’s for lifetime.

Also to add, i think these people really don’t even want to understand.

They have very rigid world views and whoever doesn’t fit in it, have to be ridiculed, for whatever reason.

@justawoman - it's great that in your day being a late developer was not a source of shame and that you are now very happy with your sexual identity. However, can you not find even a smidgeon of compassion for those whose lives have been more difficult in this respect?

As @loopsdefruit said earlier, identifying as asexual or demisexual does not involve forcing one's way into spaces that belong to the other sex, or any of the aggressive behaviours associated with transgenderism at its worst. You may roll your eyes at it, but where on earth is the harm?

Why do you think I don’t feel compassion for those who call themselves asexual

That was meant to have a question mark at the end

I don’t think I’m doing any more than eyerolling, and I certainly wouldn’t even do that if I were in the presence of a vulnerable young person who called themselves a demi greysexual ace, or whatever. I actually had a young friend a couple of years back who used exactly that description of herself and I was very supportive of her struggles to find a place in the world (she’s now a happily partnered lesbian, by the way).

I do think there can be harm in these labels, however. As others have said, they implicitly present as a ‘norm’ the idea that most people are sexually insatiable and up for it with anyone who crosses their path, and wants to do what ubiquitous internet porn tells us is satisfying sex, all the time. These are damaging messages for women, in particular, to hear.

I am not convinced kids in primary school are being pressured to commit to an identity on any great scale, but some kids in late primary, who are 10 and 11 years olds are starting to think about it. Not all though by any means, and I definitely dont think theres any shame at primary for not being interested in relationships. The pressure def steps up in year 7 and 8 though at secondary, but I honestly think most of them are still pretty fluid and undecided though. There are plenty of kids who are into other things such as sport or whatever. I dont think its massively different to when I was at school in that respect, although theres definitely much more acceptance of gay kids, and therefore more of them are realising they are gay or bisexual much earlier. When I was at school, gay was mainly an insult and the idea of bisexuality was something id never heard of or even thought was a possibility, despite me realising thats what I was as an adult. Would have been great to have realised that earlier

Of course we understand "what it is like to be a teenager/20-something who has no sexual desire", and what it is like to be older than that with no sexual desire. It is a very normal, common experience.

Making it into a personal identity just reinforces the idea that there is something exceptional and different about it and thereby increases the pressure on people in general to buy into the current fashions around sex led by porn, the commodification of sexuality and the dominance of a particualr kind of male norm in relation to desire .

It should be enough to just say 'no'. You shouldn't have to construct an 'identity' that justifies 'no' and makes it your essence, or part of your essence.

And as for understanding ""what it is like to be a teenager/20-something who has ... no sexual identity", well I certainly understand that because I don't have a sexual identity -- any more than I have a 'literature identity' because I like reading certain types of books at a certain frequency. Not everything is an identity.

@IrenetheQuaint

I do wonder how many of the people on this thread who are sneering at asexuals/demisexuals have any understanding of what it is like to be a teenager/20-something who has no sexual desire or sexual identity. It feels very isolating and shameful. Much as you may think asexual/demisexual are terribly precious as labels, they are so much better than "frigid" or "abnormal".

Yes of course it would be great if we as a society could realise that sex drive fluctuates massively between and within people and that that is perfectly normal, but we are a long way from that point.

But that's been happening forever!

I didn't have sex until I was 20. I just didn't want to have sex before that. I met men i fancied, but i didn't want sex. I didn't feel any pressure to do so either.

I prefer fwb and casual relationships to a long term steady relationship too. For lots of reasons.

It didn't need a label. And I didn't need to be put in a category box that I would have to either remain in because I'd nail my colours to a mast or scramble sheepishly out of at some point either.

It just seemed to make sense and be, I don't know, kinda 'normal' for people to be both different to each other and to change across their lifetime.

The issue is that now teens and 20somethings feel the need to label and categorise every single aspect of their personality, character, individual differences as 'something', all of which contributes to their 'identity' and, from what I can see, is very restrictive rather than liberating.

@Random789

Of course we understand "what it is like to be a teenager/20-something who has no sexual desire", and what it is like to be older than that with no sexual desire. It is a very normal, common experience.

Making it into a personal identity just reinforces the idea that there is something exceptional and different about it and thereby increases the pressure on people in general to buy into the current fashions around sex led by porn, the commodification of sexuality and the dominance of a particualr kind of male norm in relation to desire .

It should be enough to just say 'no'. You shouldn't have to construct an 'identity' that justifies 'no' and makes it your essence, or part of your essence.

And as for understanding ""what it is like to be a teenager/20-something who has ... no sexual identity", well I certainly understand that because I don't have a sexual identity -- any more than I have a 'literature identity' because I like reading certain types of books at a certain frequency. Not everything is an identity.

Absolutely.

I don't have a sexuapnidentifyeither and I don't know any other fully fledged adults who do.

We sometimes talk about sex and relationships and we are all different to each other in terms of how we do sex and relationships. We all function quite well without announcing our 'identities' and labelling ourselves!

I'm asexual here and don't experience the desire to have sex. I don't identify as an asexual in the same way I don't identify as my height, my age, my hair colour.

Its useful to have a term to describe my experience, especially if I am looking for a romantic relationship.

I did date someone sexual once. I was upfront with them about being asexual. Throughout the relationship they pushed and pushed me to go further than I felt comfortable. If I refused, I would get the cold shoulder. Ultimately we broke up and they said they had hoped they could fix me.

So this is why its important to teach that everyone has their own level of sexual activity and to respect that.

Having said that, I don't think I could have known I was asexual until into my 20s. At 14? No I couldn't have known. I think it takes puberty to do its full run before you can really know.

I also see a lot of definition drift as others have remarked. I think this is with younger people mostly. They get very into having flags and symbols everywhere - they sort of try and turn it into their whole personality.

I also see the younger ones say online that you should 'identify as asexual' to see if its 'comfy' or that you can 'take on an asexual identity' to see if it fits and can always just change your mind if it doesn't.

This annoys me as for me my sexual situation isn't something that has ever changed. For people to talk about trying it on like a hat or a pair of shoes to discard when they got bored, that's disrespectful. Its hard to tell people its not a phase when for some people they are exactly using it that way.

I think it takes puberty to do its full run before you can really know

That's why I'm uncomfortable with people saying that children are asexual. It's simply not an applicable characteristic for children who as adults might or might not have the characteristic.

LetsHaveCake, apart from discussing your asexuality with prospective partners, and telling us on here, do you have any other situations where you feel you need to, or want to, declare your asexuality?

Not massively. Mostly if someone is inquiring about my relationship situation or in discussions about dating.

Sometimes in health situations because there's an automatic assumption that you are sexually active.

With friends sometimes if sex is being discussed because I don't know what some terms mean.

But its basically mostly relevant in relationship situations.