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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I just came out as GC at work, to the big boss and I feel a bit sick

845 replies

JustcameoutGC · 15/04/2021 12:34

I have NCed for this. I have just outed myself as GC in work to the big boss (and some others cced in).

I was asked to sign off on something that I just couldn't and I said so, and explained why.

I literally feel sick. Like I have put a big fat GC target on my back. My org is totally woke. I wonder how many times my response has been forwarded already.

OP posts:
ValancyRedfern · 17/04/2021 15:13

It is not at all indisputable that any one can identify how they want. Can a white person identify as black? Can an able bodied person identify as disabled? Can you not see the problems and offence these identifications would cause?

ValancyRedfern · 17/04/2021 15:14

If teachers aren't allowed to say 'girls and women have cervices', how is she supposed to know if she has one or not?

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:17

@ValancyRedfern

If teachers aren't allowed to say 'girls and women have cervices', how is she supposed to know if she has one or not?
This faux stupidity drives me bonkers.
Datun · 17/04/2021 15:19

Are you on the wind up?

How can a teenager not know what body parts she has?

If a human is categorised as a cervix however, and no other words are allowed to be connected to that organ, how do they know?

Datun · 17/04/2021 15:19

*cervix haver

Datun · 17/04/2021 15:20

This faux stupidity drives me bonkers.

Well, can you answer the question?

Eyewhisker · 17/04/2021 15:24

Everyone has the right to be treated with respect. However, people do not have the right to force their beliefs on others.

Males with gender dysphoria identify as women. They are subject to violent attacks by males whose masculinity is threatened. This is awful.

Women are told to ‘be kind’ to males with gender dysphoria by saying TWAW and redefining the word ‘woman’ so that a woman is anyone who identifies as one.

If TWAW then excluding some women from women’s sports seems a civil rights issue.

But rephrased as ‘should males with gender dysphoria be allowed in women’s sports and women’s prisons’ the issue seems very different.

‘Being kind’ by accommodating dysphoria leads to an outcome which would never happen if we used correct language.

Biscuitsanddoombar · 17/04/2021 15:25

Jo’s trust survey

43% of women don’t know what the cervix is

www.jostrust.org.uk/node/666780

Odense · 17/04/2021 15:26

I believe that everyone should have the right to identify how they choose and people should respect t

Sounds lovely. Devil’s in the detail though. Innit.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 17/04/2021 15:27

Can a white person identify as black? Can an able bodied person identify as disabled? Can you not see the problems and offence these identifications would cause?

It was fascinating during Maya Forstater's case to learn that the answer to the first of those at the institution concerned is, 'Yes - if that's what someone identifies as' [my paraphrase of the following].

LE is a senior official at CGD.

LE — I have the email & recall but not the tweet.
CC — tweet re Rachel Dolezal
MF doesn’t see difference between man believing he can become woman and white persona believing they can become black — neither have basis in material reality
LE — OK
CC — she’s right isn’t she? [sketches Dolezal facts]
LE — I don’t know about Rachel Dolezal
CC — [refers to Dolezal interview in bundle] She’s ethnically white isn’t she
[Picture from the Rachel Dolezal interview]
LE — yes she appears to be white
CC — it’s true while she feels black that feeling has no basis in material reality
LE — No. If Rachel Dolezal recorded herself at CGD as black, she’d be black Professionally for all purposes she’d be black. In the USA anyone can self report ethnicity
CC — backed up with policy? Furore over Doelzal so not unproblematic? The reality is she’s not black?
LE — the reality is she’s black

mforstater.medium.com/live-tweets-from-the-tribunal-5bd28f8e39c1

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:27

[quote Biscuitsanddoombar]Jo’s trust survey

43% of women don’t know what the cervix is

www.jostrust.org.uk/node/666780[/quote]
No.

They don't know where it is or what it does.

They know they have one ffs.

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:28

@Datun

This faux stupidity drives me bonkers.

Well, can you answer the question?

If someone doesn't know they have a cervix , I worry about them having a job and a life.
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 17/04/2021 15:33

I believe that everyone should have the right to identify how they choose and people should respect t.

When I write it like that, it's indisputable.

What an absurd thing to say. I dispute it, most strongly.

No one is under any obligation whatsoever to respect someone else’s “identity”, especially when that “identity” is clearly at odds with material reality.

Especially when the act of claiming that identity is actually a form of appropriation carried out by members of the sex class with privilege and power against the sex class with markedly less privilege and power.

Especially when that act directly undermines the safety and breaches the human rights of the more vulnerable sex class.

No one is under any obligation whatsoever to set aside their own needs and beliefs, at great personal cost to themselves, in order to prioritise and validate the beliefs of another. There is no moral or rational basis for this at all, and there is a considerable moral and rational basis for saying no one is compelled to respect others’ beliefs in the sense of agreeing that they’re true, which is what you are implying.

Respecting their right to hold their beliefs is one thing; agreeing that they’re true is another thing altogether, and no civilised, democratic society has any business mandating people’s beliefs.

So a biologically male person is entitled to feel any way he likes about himself, including that he has some kind of feminine essence; I am equally entitled to be clear that regardless of his feelings he is nonetheless an adult human male and as such he is rightfully excluded from spaces and services set aside for those of the female sex, and indeed from the category “woman”.

The thing about having these arguments in your own head, or your own echo chamber, where you win every time, is that it in no way prepares you for having the argument with other people who think differently from you.

“Indisputable”. FFS.

WarOnWomen · 17/04/2021 15:34

That's the attitude to take. Hmm

What about women whose first language is not English or who have learning difficulties?

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:34

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

I believe that everyone should have the right to identify how they choose and people should respect t.

When I write it like that, it's indisputable.

What an absurd thing to say. I dispute it, most strongly.

No one is under any obligation whatsoever to respect someone else’s “identity”, especially when that “identity” is clearly at odds with material reality.

Especially when the act of claiming that identity is actually a form of appropriation carried out by members of the sex class with privilege and power against the sex class with markedly less privilege and power.

Especially when that act directly undermines the safety and breaches the human rights of the more vulnerable sex class.

No one is under any obligation whatsoever to set aside their own needs and beliefs, at great personal cost to themselves, in order to prioritise and validate the beliefs of another. There is no moral or rational basis for this at all, and there is a considerable moral and rational basis for saying no one is compelled to respect others’ beliefs in the sense of agreeing that they’re true, which is what you are implying.

Respecting their right to hold their beliefs is one thing; agreeing that they’re true is another thing altogether, and no civilised, democratic society has any business mandating people’s beliefs.

So a biologically male person is entitled to feel any way he likes about himself, including that he has some kind of feminine essence; I am equally entitled to be clear that regardless of his feelings he is nonetheless an adult human male and as such he is rightfully excluded from spaces and services set aside for those of the female sex, and indeed from the category “woman”.

The thing about having these arguments in your own head, or your own echo chamber, where you win every time, is that it in no way prepares you for having the argument with other people who think differently from you.

“Indisputable”. FFS.

Mmm.

That's all well and great, but my point was a somewhat flippant response to the poster who claimed nobody could possibly dispute the theory of GC. Echo chamber indeed.

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:35

@WarOnWomen

That's the attitude to take. Hmm

What about women whose first language is not English or who have learning difficulties?

Oh for goodness sake.

MN is ridiculous for this. Absolutely ridiculous.

Floisme · 17/04/2021 15:36

If someone doesn't know they have a cervix , I worry about them having a job and a life.
I notice you still haven't answered. How would a teenager know?
If it's such a stupid question then answering it should be a breeze.

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:37

Because its such a ridiculous straw man argument.

How does a teenager know anything about their body?

Floisme · 17/04/2021 15:39

You're still not answering I see. If you're finding the question so exasperating then why not jsut answer and have done with it?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 17/04/2021 15:40

If someone doesn't know they have a cervix , I worry about them having a job and a life.

The average literacy level of UK adults is that of a 12 year-old: comparable figures for numeracy are equivalent to a 9 year-old and health literacy is calculated as an amalgam of the two.

Sensible, well-educated women in this thread have commented that they thought they urinated through the vagina and learned that they were mistaken about this even after going through the experience of giving birth.

Despite the volume of health discussion in mainstream media, relatively little of it is written in an accessible style. All too often, terms are used in an unclear manner and different viewpoints are treated as equivalent so there's little educational clarity.

WarOnWomen · 17/04/2021 15:40

You might think it's ridiculous but it is a reality for people. My mum doesn't know. English is her second language.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 17/04/2021 15:40

If someone doesn't know they have a cervix , I worry about them having a job and a life.

What a hateful, sneery attitude to take. It betrays so much about you.

Plenty of people upthread have referenced the numbers of women who might well not know whether they have a cervix, whether because they have learning disabilities, are not proficient in English, or are functionally illiterate, to name a few possible reasons.

You don’t give a shit about those women and girls, do you? Those truly vulnerable, marginalised women and girls.

It’s genuinely appalling.

ListeningQuietly · 17/04/2021 15:41

There is another thread going on discussing what gets covered in sex education, PSHE and science at school.
Many parts of UK society actively discourage their children from learning the basics of anatomy and reproduction.

Most girls will not understand what their cervix actually is.
Most boys have no idea what their prostate gland is.

Transmen have a cervix.
Transwomen have a prostate.

Accurately identifying the biological reality of people
while accepting their choices in dress and sexual and social partners
is essential

AnyOldPrion · 17/04/2021 15:41

If someone doesn't know they have a cervix , I worry about them having a job and a life.

Lots of people can’t read to any significant level.

Many people cannot do basic arithmetic.

I survived two years working as a vet in a foreign country without knowing the word for cervix as it’s not something that comes up ever unless related to giving birth or or cancer screening.

People live, survive and thrive without knowing much about their bodies. Perhaps your ivory tower is a little too isolating.

EdgeOfACoin · 17/04/2021 15:42

Oh for goodness sake.

MN is ridiculous for this. Absolutely ridiculous.

That's not really addressing the point raised, though, is it.