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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I just came out as GC at work, to the big boss and I feel a bit sick

845 replies

JustcameoutGC · 15/04/2021 12:34

I have NCed for this. I have just outed myself as GC in work to the big boss (and some others cced in).

I was asked to sign off on something that I just couldn't and I said so, and explained why.

I literally feel sick. Like I have put a big fat GC target on my back. My org is totally woke. I wonder how many times my response has been forwarded already.

OP posts:
Delphinium20 · 16/04/2021 22:54

Gender causes the oppression of half of the Earth’s population and, like race, affects us all. If we truly believe that all human beings are equal, we must continue to fight this battle against the increasing tendency to reinforce gender norms in both subtle and brutal ways. From the pink or blue nursery wares, to the rape of women and girls in war-torn countries, we are all steeped in, and deeply attached to this false divide. Modern feminists on the right side of history need to let go of their firmly held position in this binary to see the wood for the trees. Then we won’t need a debate. We are all the same.*

This is how I read the above, and feel free to argue if I've missed the intent: Those women and girls raped in war-torn countries will not be helped by claiming there is a false gender divide between them and their rapists. I read this as "if they all only believed they are the same, then there would be no rape?" They were raped by MEN because they were FEMALE...not because the world hasn't yet given up an entrenched sense of a sex binary. We can't give up the female/male sex binary. It exists whether we like it or not! We exist because of it! Sex Ed 101.

Utter utter garbage to assume if feminists just thought better men would stop raping.

Delphinium20 · 16/04/2021 23:03

Oh for those who wondered..I found myself coming to FWR because my beloved godson is trans and he suffers a lot of mental illness and his family worry about the unknown and known health risks of taking off label hormones at a young age. I worry someday he may want children or enjoy a sexual relationship, but won't have the physical ability. It's not transphobic for me to see the damage an ideology can take on vulnerable young people. I'm also a feminist and care about women and girls' rights and opportunities.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 16/04/2021 23:06

Utter utter garbage to assume if feminists just thought better men would stop raping.

I looked up the writing of the report authors, hoping that it would be intellectually coherent (at worst) and perhaps challenging in other ways and offering useful and novel perspectives (which would be an excellent outcome).

The samples I looked at did not clear the (low) bar of intellectual coherence.

I'm increasingly concerned about the promotion of "lived experience" to be at the forefront of research. It's much-needed in so many parts of healthcare but there times when it feels like a cover for a lack of rigour and due diligence in research or more informal writing. (Although there are a mass of separate issues about the appropriate collaboration and mutual esteem in coproduced/cobiquitous research or service design projects.)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/04/2021 00:02

His grandfather made it back alive but not his great-grandfather and, from the stories he told my DH, the reality was very different to what that student society claimed.

I can imagine Thanks

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 17/04/2021 04:40

Gender causes the oppression of half of the Earth’s population and, like race, affects us all.

Yes. There is nothing good or beneficial about gender, it’s a bunch of regressive & misogynist social stereotypes. Which is why gender critical feminists want everyone to be able to present how they choose, while recognising that XX people are the female sex (women) and XY people are the male sex (men) regardless of what they’re wearing or how they may have modified their body. And that a person’s sex determines their changing rooms / hospital wards / DV shelters / sports teams / prisons / toilets.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 17/04/2021 04:47

Until today I've never heard the expression 'chest feeders' or 'cervix havers' the idea of it becoming common parlance is farfetched to say the least . .
Then you've been living under a rock. These terms are being embedded in official documents in areas of the NHS.

The term sex and gender is often interchangeable, when a form says 'gender' I don't imagine they're trying to make some kind of woke statement there . . The equality act clearly says 'sex.'
Unless you happen to accept Stonewall/Mermaids "version" of the Equality Act which DOES, in fact, conflate gender with sex an lies about gender identity being a protected characteristic, which it is not.
I imagine there are some red faces out there in some councils, education arenas, corporations and other organisations where their policies were changed to align with Stonewall's version of the law, which is incorrect. Some of them have changed back, some haven't.

Whether you want to admit it or not, some of the language on here is transphobic and unkind towards trans people; 'man in a dress' to name just one example. Gender re-assignment is also a protected characteristic.
"Being kind" is what gets us into this situation in the first place. Why in fuck should we "be kind" when all it gets women is to be told to sit down and STFU because trans are more important, more vulnerable, more oppressed? No.

Honestly, how many of you have actually even met a trans person?
This is an absolutely fatuous statement and has zero to do with the erosion of women's rights by the TRA movement. As it happens, yes, I have met a few trans people and have no problem with them as people - they can do what they like in terms of how they live their life, but what I will NOT accept is that they have any right whatsoever to downgrade women to a subset of their own sex, to deny female oppression, and to deny women their own sports, awards, spaces, services etc.
I do not accept that we must change the names for our own body parts to appease the feelings of TW who do not have such body parts.
I do not accept that we must change the names of female biological functions to appease the feelings of NBs or TM who have decided they no longer want to be female, while still doing the most female thing of all - having a baby and then feeding it.
I do not accept that LGB people MUST accept T into their dating pool otherwise they become "transphobic". Most of the things that are labelled "transphobic" are not - it is a buzzword that is steadily losing all meaning through over-use.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 17/04/2021 06:49

Cracking post, @ThumbWitchesAbroad. I agree entirely.

Helleofabore · 17/04/2021 07:36

I don't have particularly strong feelings either way, but I find some of the posts on here bordering on hysterical.

Hmm like women have never been called hysterical while discussing their concerns before. It is of course, quite a misogynistic turn of phrase to use for this purpose.

I can only assume you have posted to shame women having a discussion about progressing the rights of women and girls against harmful discrimination experienced due to their sexed bodies. Those being the bodies formed around the production of large gametes (regardless of whether those gametes are produced or not).

Did anyone actually read the NHS document? It does clearly refer to pregnant women. It's about inclusion and equality, making sure that everyone can access appropriate health care services.

There have been quite a few threads on that particular document and its intention. Perhaps you could look them up to understand why it is problematic. And why the very same NHS trust has a history of appalling treatment of women.

Until today I've never heard the expression 'chest feeders' or 'cervix havers' the idea of it becoming common parlance is farfetched to say the least

Then you obviously are very selective about the current affairs you read. This does say more about you than it does about others posting on this board. Perhaps you are only read only certain sections of the newspaper and watch certain news.

The term sex and gender is often interchangeable, when a form says 'gender' I don't imagine they're trying to make some kind of woke statement there

Then you are again misinformed. Perhaps you even missed the Census court case? Did you not notice the wording of the census questions when you filled it out?

Perhaps you should do some catch up reading about the fact that many organisations are in fact now conflating sex and gender identity. It is causing confusion, particularly around the application of the EA2010.

The equality act clearly says 'sex.'

This also has been in the news as there have been groups, such as Stonewall, who have been misinterpreting the Act in their role as diversity consultants. There are questions aplenty as to how this has been allowed to happen and questions raised in parliament.

Whether you want to admit it or not, some of the language on here is transphobic and unkind towards trans people; 'man in a dress' to name just one example.

Please report any transphobic posts. I rarely see the words man in a dress posted, unless it is a man in a dress. There have been a few threads on the topic. Harry Styles’ photo shoot did get at least one thread.

Most of the posts I see talk about the issues being encountered where the rights of women and girls (as per my description above) have been diluted, obfuscated, or made meaningless when another groups proposed rights are in conflict. That the other group adopted a ‘no debate’ approach has meant that these conflicts were put in place and have in some instances caused significant safeguarding issues.

If you want just one example, perhaps you should read up on males having access to women’s prisons. It is happening here, in Ireland, Canada and now California. (Start with a google search of Karen White in UK prisons)

This thread is a great resource to understanding the impacts to women’s rights to some of these recent changes or proposed changes.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Gender re-assignment is also a protected characteristic.

I wouldn’t rely on Stonewall’s interpretation of the act if I were you. Plus there are legitimate cases where people with a GRC can be excluded from single sex spaces.

Honestly, how many of you have actually even met a trans person?

This we have heard before many times by posters with the intention to shame women discussing their rights. It also shows you probably have not read many threads on this board as you would have know that, yes, many of us DO know trans people.

Some poster are even trans themselves (I know, right?) and some have children who are trans at all stages of transition, some have siblings, friends and colleagues. Some women who post here regularly can tell you their stories about their husbands transitioning.

I suggest that you might like to do some reading, if you are actually interested. That link I posted is just a start point. It may or may not change your mind, but at least you will have some actual information to hand.

transbadger · 17/04/2021 09:47

Honestly, how many of you have actually even met a trans person?

I've spent years clubbing in London at all the tranny bars (that's what the clientele call them before some idiot gets their knickers in a twist). I've danced the night away with hundreds of transwomen and drag queens.

It doesn't change my opinion on the importance of protecting women's sex-based rights and spaces.

CokeDrinker · 17/04/2021 09:49

It's posters like @SweetPetrichor that are so programmed and should be ashamed of themselves. It's ignorance of the need for safeguarding of women. It's ignorance, plain and simple. And the movement to stop this has already started. Again, you should be deeply, deeply ashamed of yourself.

BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer · 17/04/2021 10:08

It's interesting how do many more people are claimed to be transgender nowadays, because of acceptance etc.yet at the same time the sneering disbelief that we've ever encountered one. Doublethink indeed.

Interestingly, I have only ever met a possibly in the closet crossdresser. Of course by Stonewall's definition I may have met countless transgendered people and could be described as non binary myself.

Erkrie · 17/04/2021 10:17

yet at the same time the sneering disbelief that we've ever encountered one. Doublethink indeed.

Indeed.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 17/04/2021 11:28

Superb post, @ThumbWitchesAbroad !

RedDogsBeg · 17/04/2021 11:58

It's interesting how do many more people are claimed to be transgender nowadays, because of acceptance etc.yet at the same time the sneering disbelief that we've ever encountered one. Doublethink indeed.

Fascinating how trans people are apparently a miniscule minority in one breath and in the next breath we've all apparently been sharing female spaces and services with them for decades.

Equally fascinating how posters who declare themselves trans allies and appear on this board to scold us won't listen to and regularly dismiss and challenge trans posters on this board.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 17/04/2021 13:11

Thank you, Gasp0de and Schadenfreude :)

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 13:27

No sorry OP. You didn't 'come out' 🤔 you didn't take the brave and courageous step of coming out and it's insulting to call it that.

You refused to do something.

How that pans out for you, we all have our own opinions. But I'm not sure you can phrase it as something oh so noble.

CardinalLolzy · 17/04/2021 13:45

@Butwasitherdriveway

No sorry OP. You didn't 'come out' 🤔 you didn't take the brave and courageous step of coming out and it's insulting to call it that.

You refused to do something.

How that pans out for you, we all have our own opinions. But I'm not sure you can phrase it as something oh so noble.

Yes, the OP has acknowledged this in the thread.
FrancesGumm · 17/04/2021 13:47

@Butwasitherdriveway

No sorry OP. You didn't 'come out' 🤔 you didn't take the brave and courageous step of coming out and it's insulting to call it that.

You refused to do something.

How that pans out for you, we all have our own opinions. But I'm not sure you can phrase it as something oh so noble.

I disagree - in these times it is ‘coming out’ and it is brave.

Many women will feel the same as the OP but not want to stand up first, or rock the boat. I’m one of those. I admit it. It takes the first ‘I’m Spartacus’ and others then feel they can follow.

Odense · 17/04/2021 13:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

CardinalLolzy · 17/04/2021 13:54

Not sure that term is generally accepted Odense even if people did use it for themselves. (I remember Caitlin Moran getting in trouble for using it). We should try and be respectful with language - if nothing else it will get posts and threads deleted.

Odense · 17/04/2021 14:05

That’s what’s SO depressing though, isn’t it.

That’s what the people I knew called themselves, that IS how they identified. I was roundly told off for calling a person in said category by any other Name by that person themselves.

Interesting power dynamics, isn’t it. Seems that They can no longer self identify, I can’t self identify. Only some people are permitted to define themselves. Only the right sort of people.

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 14:09

Has she ? Has she said it's insulting to people who have faced genuine struggles with sexuality across history to use that phrase ?

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 14:09

@FrancesGumm but just because others feel similar doesn't make it right.

CardinalLolzy · 17/04/2021 14:11

@Butwasitherdriveway

Has she ? Has she said it's insulting to people who have faced genuine struggles with sexuality across history to use that phrase ?
You can see what the OP has said by reading the OP's posts. If you want to discuss the general usage of the phrase 'coming out' it would make more sense to start your own thread about it to avoid derailment. It would probably be an interesting thread, I'm always up for discussing how language evolves!
Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 14:19

I don't want to discuss general usage.

I just made a point and you said she'd addressed it but I can't see that she has.

It's not derailing because I'm referring directly to her OP .

Swipe left for the next trending thread