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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

ACLU sues woman for asking FOIA request re numbers of trans prisoners

70 replies

KeepPrisonsSingleSex · 14/04/2021 17:53

At the weekend, I received an email from a woman in the USA who had submitted a FOIA request to Washington Department of Corrections asking for numbers of transgender prisoners, numbers of transfer requests from male estate to female estate, numbers of actual transfers. She is legally entitled to ask for and to receive this information if it is judged to be in the public interest. If it is not judged to be in the public interest, and hence outside the scope of a FOIA, her request can be declined following a standard process.

What happened?

Well, she didn't get an answer. But more than that the American Civil Liberties Union took legal action against Washington Corrections Department AND AGAINST HER PERSONALLY to prevent this information from being released.

As you can imagine, I was shocked. Not as shocked as she was. But still....

Thankfully, WoLF have taken this on and will be fighting this on behalf of the woman.

It is chilling that ACLU have done this. What does it say for Freedom of Information?

thepostmillennial.com/aclu-blocks-womans-request-for-data-on-numbers-of-transgender-inmates-in-womens-prisons
www.womensliberationfront.org/aclu-lawsuit-public-records

OP posts:
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 14/04/2021 18:00

I'm interested to see if there is an enquiry into who leaked the FOIA submitter's identity, employers, and contact details (email address) to the ACLU alongside the content of her request.

KeepPrisonsSingleSex · 14/04/2021 18:02

That is but one of MANY relevant questions!!

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 14/04/2021 18:03

This is rather chilling. How did ACLU know anything about it?

marvellousnightforamooncup · 14/04/2021 18:05

This is shocking.

Hawkins001 · 14/04/2021 18:09

Considering it's a foia , how can the individual be included in the suit as surely it's perfectly legal for the foia ?

stumbledin · 14/04/2021 18:18

I read about this elsewhere but hadn't thought of that aspect ie someone leaking personal information.

The worry is now that every section of society, and specifically official bodies will have among its employees people who think their first loyalty is to the rainbow flag.

Does anyone know if this is being investigated.

Or on what grounds the ACLU can sue an individual. These are the people who are supposed to protect the "little people" from big government and now they are acting like big government.

Datun · 14/04/2021 18:33

I'm appalled that an organization like the ACLU, whose own resources helped me make this request, would try to stop a citizen from exercising their rights."

The ACLU of Washington has specifically advocated for the expansion of the Public Records Act in the past, stating, "Transparency is at the heart of democracy and today's decision affirms the right of the public to know about the work of the legislators that represent them."

They seem to have changed their tune.

This resulted in the case of a notorious baby killer undergoing the surgery and then being transferred into the same prison where the women whose children he killed is housed.

Monson writes that there were "two inmates moved from male to female prison. One is a serial killer who admitted to killing prostitutes and hating women, another is a sex offender charged with having sex with a 12 year old."

The woman is not wrong. In fact, Washington state radio host Dori Monson has detailed several accounts of women who are housed in women's prisons in the state and have been raped by gender non-conforming males who identify as transgender

I was about to ask what are they hiding.

But it's bloody obvious.

Ffs. It's worse than medieval.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 14/04/2021 18:44

The worry is now that every section of society, and specifically official bodies will have among its employees people who think their first loyalty is [elsewhere]

Standard FWR MN disclaimer, I'm not R0wantrees but does anyone else recall the Dawn Butler imbroglio?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3211692-Womans-Place-meeting-with-Dawn-Butler-Doxxed-by-Pink-News

Delphinium20 · 14/04/2021 18:54

This is the OPPOSITE of what the ACLU mission is. They used to champion freedom of information and civil liberties! Absolutely appalling and frankly, this lawsuit seems contrary to our 1st Amendment.

Belleende · 14/04/2021 18:56

Sweet jesus. This is so so so fucked. How could anyone defend this? How could ACLU prosecute someone for exercising their democratic right to ask questions of government? The implication of this is chilling. This is active, organised, funded suppression of the truth.

One of the many reasons why prisons are segregated is because men tend to be violent and women tend to be victims of that violence. We desperately need data to understand whether as a population TW display male or female patterns of violence. Attempts to suppress this can only point to the reality that TW in prison show male patterns of violence against female inmates.

Datun · 14/04/2021 19:04

I wonder who the woman is. She wants to remain anonymous.

I'm hoping against hope and crossing everything that she's a journalist

KeepPrisonsSingleSex · 14/04/2021 19:26

@Datun

I wonder who the woman is. She wants to remain anonymous.

I'm hoping against hope and crossing everything that she's a journalist

She has full support of WoLF, both legal and for media.
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Clymene · 14/04/2021 19:30

Wow. Civil liberties are only for men it seems. And women who identify as men like Chase Strangio.

That is unbelievably sinister.

Sexnotgender · 14/04/2021 19:33

Holy shit. How have we got here?

SmokedDuck · 14/04/2021 19:35

This is something I've been wondering about in another context.

What the heck has happened to these civil liberties groups?

It was not all that long ago, within my adult lifetime, that they were so committed to freedom of speech and freedom of thought, that they would defend people whose ideas they considered abhorrent, if their liberties were infringed in those areas.

That sort of thing was fundamental to their mission and it gave them a heck of a lot of credibility when they weighed in.

I am really curious to know if there has been some sort of whole-scale change to their membership or leadership, or they've all had some sort of alien personality change, or if there is some inter-organisational battle going on. Because I cannot see how this has happened so fast.

I see a somewhat similar thing has happened with Amnesty International, but that was clearly a long time coming and I predicted they were going to run into problems when they lost so many members over abortion issues, in many ways undermining their mandate.

But I am still gobsmacked about groups like the ACLU.

Sophoclesthefox · 14/04/2021 19:44

Bloody hellfire, this is really chilling.

Is it common for the ACLU to do this, have they done this with any other FOI request?

I mean, even if you think it’s a terrible question to ask, the concept that public bodies are accountable to citizens is a pretty fundamental one to undermine.

BrandineDelRoy · 14/04/2021 19:46

I'm by no means defending the ACLU for its position, but I don't believe this is a suit against the person making the request personally. It's a request for an injunction to stop the info being released. If Washington law is similar to my state's law, a party can challenge the release of info if they have an interest. It looks like the ACLU is representing some trans prisoners' interests in this case. The injunction is meant to stop the clock running on the deadline for release so that the ACLU and any other interested parties can get their arguments before a judge. In my state, the injunction would not name the person making the request, but Washington law may allow or even require this to alert the person that their request is being challenged. Also, requests themselves are subject to the FOIA- they aren't confidential.

My thinking is that getting this issue before a judge, especially with WOLF involved, might shed some needed sunshine on the issue. As long as the info isn't providing identifying info about any particular prisoner, I can't see why a judge wouldn't order it released.

KeepPrisonsSingleSex · 14/04/2021 20:10

@BrandineDelRoy

I'm by no means defending the ACLU for its position, but I don't believe this is a suit against the person making the request personally. It's a request for an injunction to stop the info being released. If Washington law is similar to my state's law, a party can challenge the release of info if they have an interest. It looks like the ACLU is representing some trans prisoners' interests in this case. The injunction is meant to stop the clock running on the deadline for release so that the ACLU and any other interested parties can get their arguments before a judge. In my state, the injunction would not name the person making the request, but Washington law may allow or even require this to alert the person that their request is being challenged. Also, requests themselves are subject to the FOIA- they aren't confidential.

My thinking is that getting this issue before a judge, especially with WOLF involved, might shed some needed sunshine on the issue. As long as the info isn't providing identifying info about any particular prisoner, I can't see why a judge wouldn't order it released.

No. There is also a suit against the woman who made the FOIA request. I have seen it.
OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2021 20:12

That's shocking.

BrandineDelRoy · 14/04/2021 20:15

I think she's being named as an "interested party," as in she has an interest in the case. It's not a lawsuit as people generally understand the term to mean appearing in court, being subject to damages, etc. In my state, if a party filed this kind of injunction, it is required to provide notice to the person making the request, but this person is named named in the suit.

My point is that I think there's a potential bright side to this. It's getting publicity for the issue and will have a judge rather than a state worker in charge of FOIA requests considering the arguments.

BrandineDelRoy · 14/04/2021 20:16

Should say "not named" in the suit.

R0wantrees · 14/04/2021 20:20

This recent long read discussing the documentary, 'Mighty Ira' is useful to help understand ACLU history:

Tablet Magazine
'The Disintegration of the ACLU
A new documentary about former Executive Director Ira Glasser explains how the once-storied civil liberties organization came to embrace the ideology it was built to fight'
BY
JAMES KIRCHICK
MARCH 31, 2021
(extract)
"Think of the American Civil Liberties Union during the last two decades of the 20th century, and a certain type of person invariably comes to mind: shrewd, thick-skinned, and possessed of an unwavering—some might say irritating—commitment to principle. The men and women of the ACLU were liberals in the most honorable, but increasingly obsolescent, meaning of the term. They understood that the measure of democracy lies in the impartial application of its laws, and were prepared to defend anyone whose constitutional rights were trampled upon, irrespective of their political views or the repercussions that mounting such a defense might entail." (continues)

The embrace of political partisanship, the dropping of standards, the buckling to donor demands at the expense of long-held principles—Glasser says all of these developments have rendered the ACLU unrecognizable from the group he once led. The roots of the ACLU’s evolution from principled, nonpartisan defender of civil liberties into just another cog in the progressive machine are cultural as much as generational. You might say it’s the difference between devotion to the First Amendment and devotion to oil depletion allowances.

For instance, whereas Glasser avoided wooing the wealthy, under Romero the group enthusiastically caters to the whims of ultrarich partisan donors whose support for its traditional mission is tenuous. “Glasser and the other ACLU stalwarts of his generation were scrappy and combative, jumping to take unpopular stances at the mere hint of a threat to principle,” reported The New York Times in a 2005 article about the changing nature of the organization and its leadership. Romero, by contrast, was described as having “the diplomacy and charm of a veteran foundation executive,” useful qualities for a courtier to the wealthy but worse than useless for challenging power.

This is tragic, for when it comes to free expression, we desperately need leaders with Glasser’s integrity. Practically everywhere one looks, the culture of free speech and intellectual pluralism is under assault, often at the hands of those supposed to cherish it and in spaces where it’s meant to flourish." (continues)
www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/the-disintegration-of-the-aclu-james-kirchick

BrandineDelRoy · 14/04/2021 20:47

I'll step away after this, but I've just seen a thread on another site that seems panicky. These types of injunctions are filed all the time. I've filed one. Generally, they involve companies trying to use open records laws to get information on their rivals that happens to be held by the government.

Datun · 14/04/2021 20:51

@BrandineDelRoy

I'll step away after this, but I've just seen a thread on another site that seems panicky. These types of injunctions are filed all the time. I've filed one. Generally, they involve companies trying to use open records laws to get information on their rivals that happens to be held by the government.
Who are the rivals in this scenario?
BrandineDelRoy · 14/04/2021 20:54

None. I'm just trying to put this issue into context. The focus should be the arguments WOLF has the opportunity to make before a judge.