NHS staff invitation to menopause workshop to people who menstruate!

[sunshineandhappy]

I received a generic email from the well being team at the nhs trust I am employed by inviting me to a managing menopause workshop which was open to 'people who menstruate or people who will go through the menopause'.
This was my reply I was disappointed to see the following phrase ‘those who menstruate or those who will go through the menopause ‘ in the below email. The correct phrase for the target audience should surely include the word women, even if the other phrasing needs to be used as well, as this clumsy phrasing, whilst appearing to be inclusive to a minority, is actually exclusive to the way the vast majority of the target audience for this seminar may feel. I do not want to be reduced to being a person who menstruates or a person who will go through the menopause, I am a woman, an adult human female. I hope my opinion will be considered in the spirit in which it is meant, as all groups matter, and all relevant individuals should be considered when generic emails are being sent to a large number of staff.'
We will wait to see whether I receive any response

Asugarr This use if biologically based language to be 'inclusive' is a more general problem than one workshop by the NHS.

There is a general issue of largely middle class young professional people, operating from the best possible motives of course, understanding the oppression experienced by those who are gay or gender diverse, to a certain extent those who are black or of colour, and really not at all those who are disenfranchised by being in poverty, having learning difficulties or other disabilities, or being, for example, a person raised in a different culture who is here as an asylum seeker or as a new wife, who speaks little English and has a very limited social network.

If you use language to support the wellbeing of transmen but this then means that refugee women don't understand, or women with learning difficulties don't understand, then it's not really inclusive. Using language as simple and straightforward as possible is really important. Saying "people who menstruate" instead of "women and..." really does exclude people.

ASugarr, what evidence do you require that it's dehumanising? Pages and pages of women saying they find it dehumanising and yet you still don't get it? Or do women's views just not count with you?

I don't see why they can't just write women and others affected by these issues. Or women and trans men. Or just skip it altogether and write that everyone is welcome. Or maybe can the whole workshop because biology is so terribly divisive

“Again, something that is gradually changing. It's not immediate.”
These seem like some of the most recently updated ones, a lot of the others were last updated in 2018/19

www.nhs.uk/conditions/cervical-screening/
Page last reviewed: 31 March 2020

Most women will not experience any problems, but there is a small risk of complications, such as:
www.nhs.uk/conditions/abortion/
Page last reviewed: 24 April 2020

Menopause is usually diagnosed in women over 45
www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-menopausal-bleeding/
Page last reviewed: 14 July 2020

But still
avoid making any groups of people feel excluded (from the guidelines you told us you have to follow)

Would it really matter if a non-menstruator turned up at the menopause workshop anyway? Maybe they want to support the menstruators in their lives.

Personally, the insistence that I be a menstruator would make me feel that my periods would be relevant somehow to the workshop. Rather than just being an impersonal information session it sounds like I'd have to get involved physically or menstruatingly in a group setting and I would rather not. I can't imagine hoards of non menstruators would be hustling to get into a menopause workshop anyway.

Would it really matter if a non-menstruator turned up at the menopause workshop anyway? Maybe they want to support the menstruators in their lives.

By 'non-menstruator' do you mean man, transwoman, transman (who may not be menstruating due to testosterone), or post-menopausal woman?

@ASugarr

I don't get how it is dehumanising when it's including all types of people.

No, it's not you don't get it, it is you won't get it because you are so entrenched and will not hear or consider any other view.

You have been told endlessly by numerous posters as to how your forcing of this language on others is dehumanising and why, why it is not inclusive due to the huge numbers of those who need these services will be excluded, you just won't accept it because deep down you just do not care for anyone other that your chosen select few.

It's such a shame it's been hijacked like that. I remember being so impressed when I saw the MOD putting on similar workshops and how progressive I felt it was to finally be giving a voice to a unnecessarily taboo subject. Feels like 1 step forward 3 steps back to then have such a small proportion of the population need to bogart the language around it.

By 'non-menstruator' do you mean man, transwoman, transman (who may not be menstruating due to testosterone), or post-menopausal woman?

Yes, all of those. I suppose it doesn't mean people who are between periods. I don't think you'd have to be actually menstruating on the day to attend, that wouldn't make sense.
But what about people on the pill or who stop menstruating? Or pregnant and breastfeeding people?

@ASugarr

I don't get how it is dehumanising when it's including all types of people.

You don’t have to get it, you just have to take onboard that some people have said it is and that makes them feel excluded

And the guidelines you keep telling us you have to follow, say
“avoid making any groups of people feel excluded”

@ASugarr

I don't get how it is dehumanising when it's including all types of people.

Yes, it's very clear that you don't get it, and that you are hugely invested in not getting it.

And we know that you have no respect for other people's identities and the ways in which they wish to define themselves and the language they wish to be used in relation to themselves.

Not all NHS comms are clear on this point. Just seen on Twitter a thread started by a gay man about www.nhsbt.nhs.uk/who-we-are/our-staff/lgbtplus-network/donation-if-you-are-lgbtplus/.

The stem cell donation section includes this bit: For some patients, doctors prefer to use a donor whose gender assigned at birth is matched with that of the patient. Surely this means sex?

This is the bit the gay man was questioning.

Being transgender does not in any way prevent you from being able to donate. All donors are addressed using the title and pronouns of their choice. NHS Blood and Transplant considers all donors to be the sex and/or gender that they identify as, including nonbinary, genderfluid and agender donors.

Really? They consider the potential donor to BE the sex they identify as just because they say so? Isn't this potentially risky for the recipients of the donated blood etc?

Blood donation if you are transgender
As with all donors, a careful and sympathetic consideration of sexual risk factors is undertaken. The deferral for men who have sex with men applies to men only, regardless of whether you are cis or trans. It would not apply to you if you are a transgender woman or if you are a person of another gender or no gender.

I can't make head or tails of this paragraph. Does it apply to all biological males or not? When they say transgender woman, do they mean transwoman or transman?

Similarly, haemoglobin testing is conducted in accordance with the gender with which you identify. This is because the majority of transgender people undergo hormone replacement therapy which brings their haemoglobin levels in line with most cis people of the same gender.

(a) It's not HRT. The hormones being taken were never there to start with, unlike a menopausal woman.

(b) Is it true that most transgender people take cross-hormones?

(c) I await correction, but surely one big reason women have a different haemoglobin level from men is that before the menopause women lose a lot through menstruation. That's not going to be affected by any amount of hormone therapy.

Would it really matter if a non-menstruator turned up at the menopause workshop anyway? Maybe they want to support the menstruators in their lives.

Well, you know, when I was peri-menopausal, I wouldn't have minded if a woman who'd experienced menopause* came to talk, and I could ask about stuff. But if a man (sex, not gender) of any sort were there, I just wouldn't talk; I wouldn't feel comfortable.

Why should men be tourists in women's lives?

• Note: a woman who'd been through a significant life experience, not a "non-menstruator"

As a perimenopausal woman I'd be very keen not to discuss some of my symptoms with men in the room. Is that ok nowadays? Or must there be no boundaries whatsoever?

Me too. I've seen reports on MN of men attending breastfeeding support groups. I'd have stopped going.

Me three. I don’t want to discuss my menopause issues with biological men in the room

I would not want males at a menopause workshop. What's the purpose?

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g the page you linked to has an update www.blood.co.uk/news-and-campaigns/news-and-statements/fair-steering-group/ which clarifies and streamlines things. It's also worth reading the Executive Summary.

It looks to me as if the sections you have highlighted in the original haven't yet been updated.

Thanks, Bore. (I always feel bad saying that ). I hope they get overhauled pdq as I was amazed by what I was reading. Clear as mud.

Also, it appears that use of cross-sex hormones does alter some lab values
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30518663/
Conclusions: Changes occur in several common laboratory parameters for patients on HT. Some laboratory values changed to match the gender identity, whereas others remained unchanged or were intermediate from the baseline values. These findings will help guide interpretation of laboratory test results in transgender patients taking HT.

NB HT = Hormone Therapy, not HRT

They'd just be tourists.

Fair enough to offer training for managers of both sexes around the health issues which women may encounter going through menopause, and post-menopause.

But to have men i the room in a workshop for women encountering menopause? No way.

Don't feel bad Gasp

Just noticed the changes I linked it says
This new recommendation will mean changes to the current rules for men who have sex with men as well as other specific sexual behaviours that currently require people to wait for a period of time (deferral) before being allowed to donate blood in England.

This change will not come into effect until summer 2021 and the deferral periods are still in place. We are working on updating our processes to reflect the new recommendations.

@Asugar it’s shouldn’t be including “all types” of people. It’s specifically for those with female biology, in this instant “women and transmen” would be all that was needed. Everyone that is female knows they’re female, whether or not they’ve got a male gender. There’s no need to be inclusive of transwomen or men in the language used because neither of those go through menopause.