Women's libido - apparently they just don't know why it disappears?! WTAF?

[Triffid1]

This article re women's sexuality and covid has been annoying me since I read it yesterday. In summary, they start by saying everyone thought we'd al be having loads of sex in Covid but it turns out we weren't and then it turns out that women's libidos are the reason. Then the article goes on to discuss how men's libido stays consistent throughout a relationship/time but that women's libido drops off.

These two paragraphs in particular sort of sum up how the article (and the experts the reporter is talking to) is considering the issue:

"Both start their relationship with similar honeymoonish levels of desire. But a year on and women are already disengaging. The fall in interest drops off several cliffs at the five and ten-year marks. Women are twice as likely as men to lose desire in long-term relationships. Of particular relevance to lockdown: those women living with their partners were more likely to lose interest than those in distanced long-term relationships."

"There are several ways to interpret these findings. One is that women have a limited amount of sexual drive, that they spend early on in any relationship and then the cupboard is bare. The other is that women crave sexual variety, a view that is supported by recent evolutionary theory that early human females, while pair-bonded, were frequently unfaithful in ways that maximised their offspring’s genetic advantage."

Then there's this:

"[quoting an expert on a study] "We found that when men were in a relationship with a woman they were much less likely to report masturbation. It was completely the reverse for women, who masturbated more when in a relationship with a man. The whole idea about masturbation being a substitute for partner sex, which has been around a long time, seems to be supportive for men, but for women not at all.”

"Graham says that they are not really sure why women masturbate more in heterosexual relationships, and also why they often do this in secret."

And then there's quite a lot of chat that maybe it's because the sex is bad (in a relationship).

This article has really really annoyed me. Did no one stop to think that maybe the reason women are less interested in sex is because of what's going on in the relationship? That maybe, in the early days, it's all sunshine and flowers and romantic gestures but even a year in, all those women suddenly find themselves doing more? More cleaning, more cooking, more mental thinking? We all know studies show that women in long term heterosexual relationships do more household tasks than any other group. After even just a year, I bet you that the lovely man who planned a gorgeous romantic weekend away in week 3 has already stopped thinking about all holidays and weekend breaks and it's falling on the woman? And that' before we even get to the childcare.

As for lockdown - again, studies have already told us that women were doing more. That they were bearing the brunt of the homeschooling and home management while still trying to work. That they were the ones up late at night worrying about the mental health impact on their children or dealing with the DC's tantrums and tears because they missed their friends. Men weren't doing this. So are we surprised that women didn't exactly feel like getting a little sex in ?

As for the bloody masturbation thing.... well, I can't speak for other women but maybe it's because women DO want orgasms but quite frankly, don't want the time, effort or other touch? Or even the need to think about someone else? I didn't even have to do the homeschooling thing but I can tell you that by the end of the day, I was touched out. I don't want someone touching and kissing me.

Tell me it's not just me? This entire premise that libido is completely separate from all the other stuff that goes on in life and that women's libido just mysteriously disappears blows my tiny little mind.

Agree with Copernico.
OH does loads of the work of the family.

I understand why lack of participation in the work of the family would lead to resentment which drives people apart, though.

I have heard on here “women need to feel close to want to have sex, but men want to have sex to feel close.” Which rings true for my life experience.

For me, though , OH isn’t the same person he was when we got together. He used to excite me with his spontaneity and energy. The daily grind had worn him down. I still love him but sometimes I feel like I don’t recognise him.

When was this written the 50s ?

. It's simply not biologically useful for women to have a constant, long-lasting libido.

Good point. Also hormonal contraceptives are highly effective in my experience because they kill my libido.
I think there is a very simple hormone related explanation for lack of libido which gets ignored.

@Aspiringmatriarch

I think it's boredom, not necessarily relationship problems per se, although I'm sure that doesn't help. And living with someone for a long time you can end up feeling more like siblings - it's just not erotic.

I accept that this might be an issue in other couples, but I still desire DH after 25 years together. I still get butterflies when we kiss and all that jazz.

However, my libido is directly linked to two things - how much I like DH in the moment (If he's been a stupid arse all day, my libido is through the floor into absolute nonexistence. It's like I've never had one. And when you live together, raise children together, but one does all the childcare, housework and so on while the other has really only one responsibility - his paid job, it's inevitable that we clash on occasion. Not the big clashes anymore and we were delighted to find how well we got on in lockdown. (DH travels a lot for work normally. He's rarely home for a whole month.) But still, we squabble, sometimes argue, sometimes just get annoyed with each other. And I don't do angry sex. Never have. So that limits how much sex we have, even if I desired it. And masturbation comes in handy at that time.

And the other issue is that being exhausted, stressed, busy and above all touched out are conditions my libido finds too hostile to co-exist with.

There were times when the kids were small when DH was making overtures and all I could think was If you think I have five minutes for a shag, then I have five minutes for a nap. And I needed that more.

I don't think I'm alone in that, am I?

So yes, Triffid1 these researchers seem particularly clueless. Wouldn't surprise me if any women they worked with had eyestrain from rolling their eyes so much.

there is nonetheless high (inverted) correlation between female sex drive and how much of the work she is doing for the family.

This ^

Being taken for granted is just not a turn on.

To be fair I have been with my partner nearing 10 years, we are pre children, and I do think the read some truth in this article for us atleast; and their are no major issues in our relationship with weight pulling.

My guess of reasons for why are probably boring such as I am in the mood late at night and he is in the mood in the morning. It doesnt really align very well.

I also have sexual needs so the masturbation thing rings true aswell. Its harder to reach orgasm if I have had PIV sex than if I havent. Its an efficiency thing.

@SapphosRock

I can totally see your point OP, however 'lesbian bed death' is a very common problem for long term lesbian partners so I do think women have a tendency to lose their sexual appetites in long term relationships.

This is really interesting and important I think.

Sappho, do both partners lose interest or only one? Do you think women find there's a pattern to their own loss of interest- a period of time, for example?

Lesbian couples will have the same issues with chore share, or one less generous partner, as a straight couple.

I've always assumed women would make better lovers, as they understand the anatomy!

Libido can change and be affected by a lot of different things. I don't really see what's so offensive about the idea that it might be generally lower for women, or reduce over time for women more than it does for men (although obviously these things are all generalisations).

If you're going to question the evidence for these claims though, then surely you need to apply equal scepticism and burden of proof to the idea that reductions in female libido are always or mostly due to dissatisfaction with the relationship. Many people report the two together, but what evidence is there that the causal relationship is consistent and one-sided? Some of it could be the other way around (relationships suffer in other ways once people start having less sex).

Anecdotally (since there's not really anything else to go on) I see a lot of people saying they don't want to have sex because of this that or the other with their relationship. But when, after therapy, talk, time or whatever, relationships improve again, I don't see them all confirming that their libido has shot back through the roof accordingly. Sometimes reduction in libido is just "A Thing" independent of other things.

And even if women's libido is primarily affected by relationship factors, that's still noteworthy and worth talking about, since for men it isn't (hence porn, prostitution, promiscuous infidelity etc.)

I've been in around five relationships lasting one or two years. Each time, I go off them sexually and start to feel as erotically charged as if it was my brother. Urg.
The same didn't happen on their side.
I know what I feel and don't lie to myself, but society is uncomfortable with it.

Bizarrely, I've been on relationship programmes that suggested it's men who are attracted by the bright shiny new thing, rather than women. Something called the rooster effect, where roosters step up their game when a new hen appears. The message was, 'women, introduce some novelty to keep your fella keen and focussed on you'. Nice.

@FifteenToes I am absolutely not denying that there may well be hormonal and/or evolutionary issues. Not at all. My frustration with the article was all the wide-eyed, "ooh, what issues could possibly impact this". The reality is that in as much as there probably are basic genetic/physical reasons, there are ALSO environmental ones. And this sort of research (and the articles written about it) is incredibly frustrating because it's so one sided and doesn't look at the whole picture.

DH often tells me that for him, sex is a stress relief. And he can't understand why I'm not the same. To him, if I'm feeling stressed out and unhappy, a good sex session should help. I completely see his point but I just don't feel it. And am more than willing to concede that the reason this doesn't work for me is probably some specific physical/hormonal/genetic reason. But that doesn't mean that overall libido isn't also being impacted by other things that this article is just categorically ignoring.

I work in sexual health. I have seen a lot of women who have come complaining of lack of ability to reach orgasm, lack of libido and pain on penetration.

It's been striking how many of these problems evaporate with a divorce from or change of male partner.

Fascinating.

@lightand

Am reluctant to write much about this sort of subject, but anyway here goes. For me, the moment, really did feel like the exact moment, that my periods stopped, there was a dramatic loss of libido. DH noticed it with me as well. Hasnt been too much of a problem, and certainly was not linked to anything else whatsoever. Quite bizarre. Understandable I suppose, but not what we were expecting. Only writing this in case it helps anyone else one day.

Thanks lightand, same for me. Id always had a much higher sex drive than DH but VA & menopause has brought an end to that.

It’s actually easier now our sex drives are more compatible

Libido can change and be affected by a lot of different things. I don't really see what's so offensive about the idea that it might be generally lower for women, or reduce over time for women more than it does for men (although obviously these things are all generalisations).

I don't find the suggestion offensive at all. It was the clueless wondering what on earth could cause women's libido to lower, when we know from our own experience how hard it is to feel sexy and randy when you've been puked on twice, had newborn diarrhoea shoot over your foot, haven't had a good night's sleep for four years and so on.

FAOD, I believe, based on what research I read, that the sexuality of male and female people is typically (but not always) different, that female people typically (but not always) have a lower sex drive than males, that the libido of female people typically (but not always) reduces over time and in different ways from the way male libido changes and that we need different stimuli etc etc.

And one of these differences, I believe, is that women's libido is far more vulnerable to being reduced by all of the issues we've discussed.

And I wouldn't call them relationship issues per se - if one partner is essentially absent because of their job, meaning the other partner being left with all of the childcare and housework, that doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong with the relationship. The issue is that motherhood is stressful, caring for and bringing up children is time consuming, exhausting work. Rewarding in my view but hard.

And that this may have an effect on a woman's libido, too, in addition to the normal libido changes that happen in long-term relationships, should be well known by now. Including by the researchers the OP criticised.

The masturbating in secret thing, I don't get because isn't masturbating a solitary thing anyway? It's nobody's business, not a secret.
That makes me feel like there are a lot of women in relationships where they have to pretend they have no libido, rather than admit they don't want sex with their partner.
Another reason besides housework ime is nagging/pressure. Nothing makes me want sex less than feeling like I have a chore to do in servicing my partner. It has been a problem in previous relationships and of course I felt for ages like I'd inexplicably "gone off it" rather than being able to link my lack of desire to my partners frankly coercive behaviours.

How does this article and the way a lack of libido is framed as a problem fit into the rainbow philosophy?

Surely a woman who has gone off sex should just come out as an asexual then they'll be celebrated for their bravery and being their authentic self.

‘It's simply not biologically useful for women to have a constant, long-lasting libido.’

Yes. Women birth space to give the best opportunities to the children they already have.

The more work they have to do, the less reliable their partner is and the more uncertain the environment they are in, the less appealing penetrative sex is going to be.

I don't think it's at all fair to find this so annoying.

Yes, there are all kinds of potential reasns that might explain this, but scientific studies by their very nature ask limited questions and then crunch the data around those questions.

Sometimes that gives answers and sometimes it creates more questions, and both are good outcomes.

If there is no data, it's not really science, it's just speculation.

Lack of libido in older women is largely down to hormones I think, and hormone suppression due to pregnancy and breastfeeding can be a factor earlier on though they may not have looked at women in those situations.

@JoysexrenovationFingerFumble

I would bet money, lots of money, that women's desire to have sex with men is directly linked to how much of a chore-dodging man-child she's living with.

Our culture is so completely and utterly focused on what men like, what they find attractive, what turns them on, that the researchers seem to have forgotten that women also experience sexual desire (or lack thereof). It’s just absolutely hopeless, there’s no helping some people 🤷‍♀️

yes - definitely agree. The chore -dodging man child issues regularly interfere with any libido. Feeling like someone's mom does not make me feel sexy !

Oh I’ve definitely seen it all now

And that this may have an effect on a woman's libido, too, in addition to the normal libido changes that happen in long-term relationships, should be well known by now. Including by the researchers the OP criticised.

Thank you @CharlieParley - very well and succinctly put.

Lesbian couples will have the same issues with chore share, or one less generous partner, as a straight couple.

See I disagree - in my experience lesbians tend to share the chores equally and we all know that often isn't the case in straight partnerships.

Sappho, do both partners lose interest or only one? Do you think women find there's a pattern to their own loss of interest- a period of time, for example?

I'm not really sure why but lesbian bed death is a well known lesbian cliche. Once the first few passionate dates are out the way they move in together (almost always within a year) and are both completely content to curl up in bed with a cup of tea, a good book and never pester one another for sex again unless they've had white wine or it's someone's birthday.

Does it drop off the cliff when they realise he's a lazy, selfish, boring twat who won't parent (but will 'help' sometimes, and doesn't she know it!!) and actually has no interest in changing things for the better, has no idea where her erogenous zones are and is partial to cheating (because she doesn't give him enough attention, waaaah waaaah)?

That's what my study concluded.

Thanks Sapphos!

Do suggest reading

'Come as you are' By Emily Nagoski

and making any significant other male or female or other read it too. It puts to put a load of myths about human (spefically female ) sexuality.

But the main takeway that we all know extremely well is that sexual desire is context specific and a shit ton of domestic life, let alone domestic life in lockdown doesn't illuminate much sexual desire.