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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

More transgender people are hiding their identity at work in the U.K. Why?

60 replies

Trixie78 · 13/04/2021 00:20

www.google.com/amp/s/theweek.com/articles-amp/976336/more-transgender-people-are-hiding-identity-work-uk-why

WTAF did I just read. I couldn't even finish it, I got to:

Feminism has always been a fight about the definition of gender, about what the relation between sex and gender might be. And it's never been cohesive."

This is not my understanding of feminism 🤨

OP posts:
GreyhoundG1rl · 13/04/2021 00:24

Nor mine 🙄

LibertyMole · 13/04/2021 00:42

It is not primarily what feminism is about. Feminism is primarily about women’s rights.

But feminism has debated the relationship between sex and gender roles for a very long time.

RobboCop · 13/04/2021 00:47

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Trixie78 · 13/04/2021 00:49

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Scepticaltank · 13/04/2021 00:50

There are limited situations in work for people to unhide their non binary identity.
It is invisible anyway.
People don't want to participate in pronoun farces so how else can a non binary employees unhide their identity.
I am not going to get too sad about this.
We just had a year of lockdown. I stick a jumper on if someone wants to zoom me.
I have not been required to celebrate anyone's sex life, internal identity, or lack of alignment for a whole year.
Pubs have reopened, you can non binary there.

GreyhoundG1rl · 13/04/2021 00:50

That's the thing, RobboCop, there are several very pressing reasons why they imagine this should be allowed. But absolutely no good ones.

Delphinium20 · 13/04/2021 00:58

@Scepticaltank

There are limited situations in work for people to unhide their non binary identity. It is invisible anyway. People don't want to participate in pronoun farces so how else can a non binary employees unhide their identity. I am not going to get too sad about this. We just had a year of lockdown. I stick a jumper on if someone wants to zoom me. I have not been required to celebrate anyone's sex life, internal identity, or lack of alignment for a whole year. Pubs have reopened, you can non binary there.
Smile
LibertyMole · 13/04/2021 01:00

Good point Tank.

GreyhoundG1rl · 13/04/2021 01:08

Christ, that article... I couldn't read past the first paragraph, in which the hero of the tale didn't feel able to come out as trans.
And this isn't the only time they were discriminated against Confused. How were they discriminated against? Nobody fucking knew!

SageHoney · 13/04/2021 06:28

I can't tell whether Ashleigh had transitioned before starting the job and wanted to tell colleagues her trans status but was afraid, or hadn't transitioned and didn't feel able to do so while in that job? And what any of this has to do with feminists, when tech is a pretty hostile place for anyone but dudebros, and the article says the company was 80% male?
Maybe it makes more sense to a "US domestic audience", though.

The “feminist” they quote in the article just wrote a book advocating for paid surrogacy on a global level, so yeah, I wasn't expecting a radical or Marxist feminist here but, um ... Sophie's scholarship operates in the spheres of trans feminist cultural criticism and queer social reproduction theory, notably around utopian critiques of the family, Marxism, and Black and abolitionist feminisms. Her research currently focuses on the etiologies of eugenic, bioconservative and imperial feminisms, including narratives of so-called white slavery past and present, femonationalism, and trans-exclusionary femocratism.

Here's the book blurb:

"Where pregnancy is concerned, let every pregnancy be for everyone. Let us overthrow, in short, the “family”. The surrogacy industry is estimated to be worth over $1 billion a year, and many of its surrogates around the world work in terrible conditions—deception, wage-stealing and money skimming are rife; adequate medical care is horrifyingly absent; and informed consent is depressingly rare. In Full Surrogacy Now, Sophie Lewis brings a fresh and unique perspective to the topic. Often, we think of surrogacy as the problem, but, Full Surrogacy Now argues, we need more surrogacy, not less!"

"Rather than looking at surrogacy through a legal lens, Lewis argues that the needs and protection of surrogates should be put front and center. Their relationship to the babies they gestate must be rethought, as part of a move to recognize that reproduction is productive work. Only then can we begin to break down our assumptions that children “belong” to those whose genetics they share."

Ta, Sophie, but I'll pass. The issue is not that there are hordes of aspiring birthing bodies around the world just looking for better working conditions so they can flourish in their nice middle-class surrogacy careers, but that women are forced into these positions - often by abusive husbands or fathers - out of poverty and lack of agency. This "feminism" looks pretty colonialist and imperialist to me.

Illegible · 13/04/2021 06:40

Perhaps to avoid boring their colleagues to death.

transsloth · 13/04/2021 06:53

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McPancreas · 13/04/2021 07:49

There is a concerted effort to paint the UK as unsafe for trans people because of the blasphemous GC thoughts of women (men like myself also hold these thoughts but are not considered as dangerous/offensive).

It's telling that the main example of transphobia in this article is actually homophobia. We are also told the perpetrators are 80% men.

The rest of the article then goes on to focus on how awful women like Suzanne Moore, feminists and JK Rowling are the problem.

OhHolyJesus · 13/04/2021 07:57

Rather than looking at surrogacy through a legal lens, Lewis argues that the needs and protection of surrogates should be put front and center. Their relationship to the babies they gestate must be rethought, as part of a move to recognize that reproduction is productive work

So Sophie thinks it's work but should have laws around it. What other 'work' should have any legal protection? CEOs? Banking? Airlines?

I'll take a hard pass on that too.

Sorry for the derail OP. I couldn't get past the first couple of paragraphs either.

McPancreas · 13/04/2021 08:02

Stonewall - This is a massive problem

Stonewall also - "There's plenty of training available to ensure a trans-inclusive workplace"

And the grift goes on...

boatyardblues · 13/04/2021 08:09

@SageHoney

I can't tell whether Ashleigh had transitioned before starting the job and wanted to tell colleagues her trans status but was afraid, or hadn't transitioned and didn't feel able to do so while in that job? And what any of this has to do with feminists, when tech is a pretty hostile place for anyone but dudebros, and the article says the company was 80% male? Maybe it makes more sense to a "US domestic audience", though.

The “feminist” they quote in the article just wrote a book advocating for paid surrogacy on a global level, so yeah, I wasn't expecting a radical or Marxist feminist here but, um ... Sophie's scholarship operates in the spheres of trans feminist cultural criticism and queer social reproduction theory, notably around utopian critiques of the family, Marxism, and Black and abolitionist feminisms. Her research currently focuses on the etiologies of eugenic, bioconservative and imperial feminisms, including narratives of so-called white slavery past and present, femonationalism, and trans-exclusionary femocratism.

Here's the book blurb:

"Where pregnancy is concerned, let every pregnancy be for everyone. Let us overthrow, in short, the “family”. The surrogacy industry is estimated to be worth over $1 billion a year, and many of its surrogates around the world work in terrible conditions—deception, wage-stealing and money skimming are rife; adequate medical care is horrifyingly absent; and informed consent is depressingly rare. In Full Surrogacy Now, Sophie Lewis brings a fresh and unique perspective to the topic. Often, we think of surrogacy as the problem, but, Full Surrogacy Now argues, we need more surrogacy, not less!"

"Rather than looking at surrogacy through a legal lens, Lewis argues that the needs and protection of surrogates should be put front and center. Their relationship to the babies they gestate must be rethought, as part of a move to recognize that reproduction is productive work. Only then can we begin to break down our assumptions that children “belong” to those whose genetics they share."

Ta, Sophie, but I'll pass. The issue is not that there are hordes of aspiring birthing bodies around the world just looking for better working conditions so they can flourish in their nice middle-class surrogacy careers, but that women are forced into these positions - often by abusive husbands or fathers - out of poverty and lack of agency. This "feminism" looks pretty colonialist and imperialist to me.

The bit that jumps out of this quote for me was “adequate medical care is horrifyingly absent” and pushing women down the path of further pregnancies to benefit someone else is an even vaguely ethical solution to these women’s problems? Her existing children may be left without the protection and nurture of their own mother. 😠
Mrsfrumble · 13/04/2021 08:16

^Where pregnancy is concerned, let every pregnancy be for everyone...
Their relationship to the babies they gestate must be rethought, as part of a move to recognize that reproduction is productive work. Only then can we begin to break down our assumptions that children “belong” to those whose genetics they share^

Copywrite The Sons of Jacob, Gilead.

AnyOldPrion · 13/04/2021 08:19

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Congressdingo · 13/04/2021 08:23

Only then can we begin to break down our assumptions that children “belong” to those whose genetics they share^

Shit that bit is truly frightening, it's a hop skip and jump away from just taking a child off the streets, because children dont "belong" to anyone.

endofthelinefinally · 13/04/2021 08:23

I think there is far too much over sharing and information collecting going on in the work place. Age, ethnicity and disability data I can accept, providing it is kept confidential to HR.
Gender identity, religion, sexuality, relationship status is private. Employers have no reason to invade people's privacy. None of these things are relevant to the work place.

QuentinWinters · 13/04/2021 08:28

It's the fact it's being blamed on "feminists" AKA women that upsets me.
I personally don't think that it's unusual for people to keep certain aspects of their life private at work.
And there's something bothering me about using rates of "coming out" to measure how accepting society is. I can't really articulate it, but I don't think we should be using the fact someone is too worried about coming out as a measure of anything. We should be measuring why they are too worried to come out.

littlebillie · 13/04/2021 08:34

The workplace is where I go to work, I tend to be focussed on the work in hand and I am always incredibly busy.

I tend to be polite as ask about holidays etc with my colleagues. However discussions about their sex life or orientation is of no interest to me.

Where is all this engagement coming from, why are we supposed to care about it especially at work. I think there is a naivety that other people actually care. I am there to work and fulfil my legal responsibilities to my employer.

OhHolyJesus · 13/04/2021 08:37

Shit that bit is truly frightening, it's a hop skip and jump away from just taking a child off the streets, because children dont "belong" to anyone.

One wouldn't want to be suspicious would one...Confused

https://www.gov.scot/policies/girfec/named-person/

It was scrapped but the NSPCC has statutory powers...

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 13/04/2021 08:48

A colleague came out on our intranet as non-binary and was praised by our MD for bringing their whole self to work.

My whole self is gender critical and I have to hide that at work...

WarmDuscher · 13/04/2021 08:50

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