Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

More transgender people are hiding their identity at work in the U.K. Why?

60 replies

Trixie78 · 13/04/2021 00:20

www.google.com/amp/s/theweek.com/articles-amp/976336/more-transgender-people-are-hiding-identity-work-uk-why

WTAF did I just read. I couldn't even finish it, I got to:

Feminism has always been a fight about the definition of gender, about what the relation between sex and gender might be. And it's never been cohesive."

This is not my understanding of feminism 🤨

OP posts:
Aspiringmatriarch · 13/04/2021 08:51

"Where pregnancy is concerned, let every pregnancy be for everyone. Let us overthrow, in short, the “family”. The surrogacy industry is estimated to be worth over $1 billion a year, and many of its surrogates around the world work in terrible conditions—deception, wage-stealing and money skimming are rife; adequate medical care is horrifyingly absent; and informed consent is depressingly rare. In Full Surrogacy Now, Sophie Lewis brings a fresh and unique perspective to the topic. Often, we think of surrogacy as the problem, but, Full Surrogacy Now argues, we need more surrogacy, not less!"

"Rather than looking at surrogacy through a legal lens, Lewis argues that the needs and protection of surrogates should be put front and center. Their relationship to the babies they gestate must be rethought, as part of a move to recognize that reproduction is productive work. Only then can we begin to break down our assumptions that children “belong” to those whose genetics they share."

I find this incredibly frightening to read. The jarringly peppy and upbeat take on the whole dystopian nightmare they're advocating. Reproduction is productive work. Sex work is work. Women's bodies are just disposable vessels.

PopperUppleton · 13/04/2021 09:15

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

A colleague came out on our intranet as non-binary and was praised by our MD for bringing their whole self to work.

My whole self is gender critical and I have to hide that at work...

That is so true, isn't it? It's only inclusive of certain people.

I pointed out that my workplace used gender instead of sex when talking about the protected characteristics in the Equality Act, I questioned it, they said they were being more inclusive. I suggested that rewriting an Act of Parliament wasn't appropriate, and that everyone has a sex but not everyone feels they have a gender, so actually it's less inclusive, and they shut me down saying they would check, but of course never came back to me and haven't rewritten their slides. And several people sent me instances of court cases where people won the right the be known as non binary, saying the courts themselves overrode 'sex' in law. I despair, I really do. I certainly can't bring my whole self to work.

We have lots of pronouns in signatures, and in LGBT History Month our gay director said he didn't know much about trans and non binary, and should probably educate himself. People offered to educate him, I wondered if he'd have heard another side of the debate from me. Doubt it.

Greenflygatherer · 13/04/2021 09:39

I don't believe in gender, its as made up as Santa.

You believe it all you want but I shouldn't be forced to.

WarmDuscher · 13/04/2021 09:40

We have lots of pronouns in signatures, and in LGBT History Month our gay director said he didn't know much about trans and non binary, and should probably educate himself. People offered to educate him, I wondered if he'd have heard another side of the debate from me. Doubt it.

Oh the people doing the “educating “ would have loved all that prostrating and begging for forgiveness for wrongthink. I’m surprised they haven’t changed the word from “educating” though. It’s had such sinister overtones throughout history and currently, for example in the case of the Uyghers in China.

Melroses · 13/04/2021 09:55

I thought that was the whole point of the GRA 🤷‍♀️

ArabellaScott · 13/04/2021 10:08

Full Surrogacy Now argues, we need more surrogacy, not less!"

Clearly a child-centred argument, eh? Not at all chilling.

I don't know much about politics, but it seems to me that a basic underpinning of the right is family over society, and the left seems to swing the other way - am I way off?

QuentinWinters · 13/04/2021 10:24

My whole self is gender critical and I have to hide that at work...

I agree. I definitely have to dial down the feminism at work.

Also it really isn't de rigeur to discuss politics/brexit position/religion etc

www.newsweek.com/dial-down-feminism-artist-801648

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/04/2021 10:47

My whole self is gender critical and I have to hide that at work...

Quite. Luckily in my day to day environment it's not really an issue but the wider organisation sends out eye roll inducing newsletters regularly.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 13/04/2021 11:16

@Mrsfrumble

^Where pregnancy is concerned, let every pregnancy be for everyone... Their relationship to the babies they gestate must be rethought, as part of a move to recognize that reproduction is productive work. Only then can we begin to break down our assumptions that children “belong” to those whose genetics they share^

Copywrite The Sons of Jacob, Gilead.

Just catching up with this thread, and this is horrifying.

That this ideological analysis of/dream for the world is in the ascendancy is truly chilling.

Shizuku · 13/04/2021 11:22

Maybe they are afraid of loosing their job:

www.crosslandsolicitors.com/site/hr-hub/transgender-discrimination-in-UK-workplaces

"Our shocking new report reveals a strong prejudice among UK employers towards transgender workers with 1 in 3 employers admitting they are ‘less likely’ to hire a transgender person and nearly half (43%) unsure if they would recruit a transgender worker."

peak2021 · 13/04/2021 11:30

This does not surprise me. Fear of the reaction and @Shizuku the figures are no great shock to me. Another reason not to insist on pronouns being declared, as other threads have noted.

QuentinWinters · 13/04/2021 11:35

That article is confusing. Later it says "Transphobia extends beyond the workplace. More than half (51%) think Women’s Aid the UK domestic violence charity, is wrong to consider lifting its ban on transgender women working in their refuges. Over a third (37%) feel transgender women should not have a choice to take hormone therapy so they can potentially breastfeed their baby after the first recorded case of its kind was published February this year. And, nearly a quarter (23%) think that the Labour Party was wrong to open its all-women shortlists to self-identifying transgender women.*
None of that is transphobia. All of that is about how you define woman and whether you believe biological sex is important to how women navigate the world.

They also are not clear about what questions they asked in their poll.

All my employers (5 over 20 years) have had out transgender employees, so if its true that "74% of employers have never knowingly worked with a transgender person" then I must have been exceedingly unusual in the companies I've worked for.

NRCS · 13/04/2021 11:35

Why should anyone care if anyone is trans (or not) at work? I literally couldn't care whether the person I'm working with is male, female or thinks they are a woman/man as long as they update that damn spreadsheet properly etc.

I've spent years trying to get by as a woman in a male-dominated industry, now finally women can be there on more or less an equal footing. The whole point is were trying to get to a point where it doesn't matter in the workplace whether you are male or female, so equally nobody should car or need to know either way if you consider yourself trans. I really don't care about anyone's sex or perceived gender at work, and certainly do not have any need or wish to know about their sex lives - I only care if they are good at their jobs and reasonably nice people.

QuentinWinters · 13/04/2021 11:42

This is interesting
www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/experts/legal/latest-legal-developments-in-gender-reassignment-discrimination#gref

Paradoxically, it is notable that although discrimination against trans people in the employment context (and wider society) is rife, and in recent years the issue has been brought to the forefront by activists, there has been little employment-related case law over the same period.

I wonder why trans people aren't taking employers to court over discrimination?

Sophoclesthefox · 13/04/2021 12:32

I’m thoroughly confused now.

Shizuku has previously told us that we all encounter trans people all the time, but we don’t know because they pass. Presumably, as they pass, they can’t be discriminated against for being trans, and they have no need to come out. So coming out really isn’t an issue for them. How would they have responded to these questions?

Also, in the piece, JKR is referred to as “coming out” regarding her opinion on women’s rights and gender issues, but this is framed as bad and wrong. She should have stayed closeted.

I don’t think people should be discriminated against in employment for being trans, which I hope goes without saying. I’m just not sure that the current approach of shouting at people to stop being transphobic and trampling over women’s rights has done much to improve the situation.

AdHominemNonSequitur · 13/04/2021 12:42

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

A colleague came out on our intranet as non-binary and was praised by our MD for bringing their whole self to work.

My whole self is gender critical and I have to hide that at work...

Yup. Wrong sort of self, sorry. Only sanctioned whole selves.
DadJoke · 13/04/2021 12:47

The report suggests that the primary reason that transgender people hide their status is because of workplace bullying. It's not complicated - it's for the same reason some gay people hide their sexuality.

www.totaljobs.com/advice/trans-employee-experiences-survey-2021-research-conducted-by-totaljobs

NRCS · 13/04/2021 12:49

Yes that is very true. I can't be my authentic gender critical self at work or anywhere and have to use Twitter anonymously for fear of being doxxed, discriminated against, verbally and physically intimidated or called abusive words like the c words and transphobic which I absolutely do not accept.

agentmichaelscarn · 13/04/2021 12:50

Why would you need to bring your whole self to work? Does this mean I can/should air all my relationship troubles at work? Talk about my surgery? What a ridiculous concept.

NRCS · 13/04/2021 12:52

the only bullying of trans or gay people I have ever witnessed in 25 years in the workplace has come from men, behind the person's back not to their face, and even that was many years ago. Nobody I work with gives a shit if people are gay or straight as it has no relevance in the workplace and if there are trans people among us, nobody would give a shit about that either.

QuentinWinters · 13/04/2021 12:52

I understand that. The bit i don't understand is how a trans person too scared to come out in case they are bullied in a male dominated organisation, can blame that on feminists.

SmokedDuck · 13/04/2021 13:06

@QuentinWinters

I understand that. The bit i don't understand is how a trans person too scared to come out in case they are bullied in a male dominated organisation, can blame that on feminists.
I would guess the idea is that feminists have created an atmosphere where it is ok to question what they consider to be trans rights.

If you think that anything other than 100% agreement with the activists is transphobia, it is the case that in the UK, there is more public questioning of those things. Compared to where I live where you wouldn't dare let out a peep about any of it.

But really, that just comes down to public discussion of controversial or difficult questions equals bigotry.

I'm not convinced that is the real explanation of the numbers in this link though.

ArabellaScott · 13/04/2021 13:41

I’m just not sure that the current approach of shouting at people to stop being transphobic and trampling over women’s rights has done much to improve the situation.

That would be supposing the intent was to improve the situation, rather than just another opportunity to shout at women and trample on their rights.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/04/2021 14:08

That would be supposing the intent was to improve the situation, rather than just another opportunity to shout at women and trample on their rights.

Quite.

Swipe left for the next trending thread