Has the big question been put to AIBU ?

[GNCQ]

So, the word woman

I don't want to do a thread in AIBU if it's already been done before. I take long breaks from MN so often miss stuff.

Has there been a vote on opinions about the word woman? Basically - Is it based on your personality/gender for anyone to use, or is it sex based intended for adult human females, with an AIBU choice voting enabled.

Has this already been done?
Would I be mad to start such a thread?
Would it get me banned?

Please advise xx

I've never found or being given a satisfactory definition of 'transwoman' / 'trans woman' and so don't use it. Except in context of reporting that a person identifies themselves as such.
Its a term not defined in UK law.

@Shizuku

I call transwomen transwomen. That's not because I think they are actually women. They're not. I just don't want to be vindictively reported by ideologues for calling them men.

The majority of the population aren't even aware of the discussions around trans people, self-ID, and all the rest, let alone do they have an opinion on any of it.

This stuff is nowhere near as mainstream as you'd like it to be.

🦡🌈🤍

This stuff is nowhere near as mainstream as you'd like it to be. Oh, but Shizuku knows that. They posted the proof of how much popularity the two terms have gained over the years.

The heady heights of 0.000006% occurence across Google books in 2019 ish!

And, with the aim of all fairness and transparency:
Woman - same search criteria 0.023% of all words
Man - again, same search criteria 0.058

Let's hear it for the patriarchy - yay!
So very, very mainstream!

I wonder what percentage of the many people who are not au fait with this topic would interpret “transwoman” or “trans woman” as a woman (a female woman, for avoidance of doubt) who identifies as a man?

Yes this is my experience of speaking to people who are unfamiliar with the lingo. They assume that trans man = a male to female transexual person. Most people have to be “educated” into referring to a male person as a women and that’s because it is contrary to their own perception of reality.

@Signalbox

I wonder what percentage of the many people who are not au fait with this topic would interpret “transwoman” or “trans woman” as a woman (a female woman, for avoidance of doubt) who identifies as a man?

Yes this is my experience of speaking to people who are unfamiliar with the lingo. They assume that trans man = a male to female transexual person. Most people have to be “educated” into referring to a male person as a women and that’s because it is contrary to their own perception of reality.

This has been my experience too. In fact, most people I have spoke in RL think a TW is a woman identifying as a man. I thought the same.

Always useful to refer to the Oxford English Dictionary when it comes to words because they tend not to be wrong. First up, "woman".

Second, "transwoman"

Ooh!

Sorry, above is in reply to someone claiming "transwoman" was some sort of new invented term instead of "trans - space - woman"
Missed a few posts here.

I've had conversations in real life.

I don't talk about it unless it comes up.

Both my parents think it's utter bollocks and get quite irate about it.

DH thinks it's drivel, he used to play rugby and obviously hears a lot from me!

Interestingly before covid when we went to the pub with one of his mates. Who is a shaved head ex rugby playing bloke with staffies and is very nice but very blokey (I like him but with reservations I've known him for years). He brought it up and launched into a rant about how it would impact women and girls. I suspect his wife has been bending his ear.

A male friend at work brought it up, and said it's awful and his wife was really angry and kept going on about it. He knew about sports prisons etc.

The men on my team just say 'it's a load of shite'.

The only person who has brought it up and has a different opinion is a lovely woman who is active in LBGT+ things. And this is a theme.

Years ago. Maybe 4 years. I was at an LGBT+ industry event as an ally. I used to go along with my mate who was the lead on the LGBT+ group at my work.

We had really amazing speakers, as ever. A woman who had a seriously high powered job who was a lesbian talked about her life. A man who worked for stonewall talked about growing up in a small community on South America coming to London what it all meant. That was really emotional, tears wiped.
A very young man who got an internship and then a job who had been scared but out from the start and how it was fine .
(Yes there's a bit of yay for certain companies... But he spoke from the heart).
And then another lesbian talking about her experiences and challenges and ending with a rousing, yeah just do it! You can do it! Sod worrying).

And then we had the person who was the head of the group read out a prepared speech about trans inclusion and the terrible situation.

Now I know the idea is that you can't tell if a person is trans. Which may be true sometimes. But I'm fairly confident there was a very very low amount of trans people there. If any. And this is in the pips bunce sort of zone of work. But yes you can't tell.

It was not a trans person who gave the speech.

The lovely audience of gay men, lesbians, and allies were moved. Angry. It was a hard hitting speech.

Delivered to an audience of gay men, lesbians and their friends.

I found it really odd and manipulative tbh.

Sort of area and industry that p bunce is in...

And later there were a couple of trans women in the building and in the lifts, walking about, I never saw anyone staring etc.

I knew they were trans because of how they looked and also because of the badges and t-shirts they wore to say so.

Shit that was long

I love the way MN is represented as an echo chamber when anyone can post, and there's no block/ delete/ edit.

If anyone walks into their local and says should any male people be locked in prison with women or play them at sport they'd say don't be fucking ridiculous.

Does anyone really not believe that?

Or is the problem that some people don't have a very wide range of people they talk to.

@NiceGerbil

Shit that was long

I love the way MN is represented as an echo chamber when anyone can post, and there's no block/ delete/ edit.

If anyone walks into their local and says should any male people be locked in prison with women or play them at sport they'd say don't be fucking ridiculous.

Does anyone really not believe that?

Or is the problem that some people don't have a very wide range of people they talk to.

The trans lobby are way out of touch with what the average person thinks.

And I would say don't start a thread on AIBU or chat.
It's been done loads
Answer is always vast majority take the apparently outdated 'Gc' position around woman/ girl/ cis etc

It will wind people up I promise.

@Shizuku

"I think you have an overinflated expectation that people do refer to transwomen as women."

I haven't said whether or not the majority do or don't. However, most people call trans women "trans women" - see that? Two separate words - one is the adjective "trans" and the other in the noun "woman". The GC thing of conflating both words into a new word is just your thing - it's not something most people do.

ANd the point still stands - if indeed it does become the majority usage, that is what the word means regardless of whether you think it should. In fact, even if a significant minority use it that way, then it is already one of the definitions of "woman".

The general level of grammar and literacy in the UK is pretty poor and this is a point in hand.

Most people will not give thought to the different usage of adjectives and nouns, or care either way.

Those that do, are arguing whether it is trans woman, or trans woman - depending on which side of the argument they are on. I suspect this less than 10% of women, which is unfortunate.

Did you know that more than 53% of people think a chest of drawers is a Chester drawers and are greatly confused about when to use affect and effect.

The majority usage does not always become the correct usage.

If everyone who uses the word "transwomen" is immediately dog-piled and threatened with social punishment by a very loud, aggressive and angry mob, then it's not really a surprise that people put the space in.

Presumably we're allowed to change maths in the same way?
Im bored of 2+2=4 and pi=3.14.
From now on pi=31.1079. That is my truth. Circles will just have to get on board with the new meaning.

The trans lobby are way out of touch with what the average person thinks.

But a surprising number of people are happy to go along with it. Interestingly I have had conversations as follows:

Young male teacher "well once they've transitioned they are the other sex"

A male architect "but once they've changed sex...", he didn't seem to believe that changing sex isn't possible.

A female friend who runs her own business "but he seems to be so much happier now" about a young transgender person, 17 or 18, who had socially transitioned.

These are the people who are just going along with it without really thinking or knowing about the consequences. They want to be kind.

Maybe they don't believe they would be told sex-change was possible if it wasn't actually true.

Maybe they haven't realised the permanent damage hormones, binders and surgery will do, and that there is no going back.

But when push comes to shove they all know what sex a person actually is.

Also, the linguistic battle of transwoman or trans woman is far too subtle for most people.

Could of upset a few pedants maybe, but saying a man is a woman because you separated the trans is you're weakest effort.

But a surprising number of people are happy to go along with it.

Yes. Until they have a conversation with someone about it.

I had one of those conversations transsloth. With a new friend who just wanted people to not be discriminated against. I asked her what rights did they not have in the UK and she admitted they had all the same rights. She certainly did not think that they should be in single sex spaces when she thought about it. And sports, no, they shouldn’t be competing against women.

In the end, she admitted that she hadn’t thought at all about it. She and I were agreed that they should not be discriminated against for their presentation. But they needed their own spaces and shortlists and representation.

I have now had similar conversations with other women.

So, yes. Many are going along with it without thinking it through.

I think many activists like to gloss over the fact their support has little foundation past the superficial level. Even on this thread pp has admitted it is ‘not the majority’ with the proviso of ‘yet’ being added.

I don’t think it will ever reach a majority thinking. People are putting too much weight on ‘young people are the future’. Fuck off with that. Before my pregnancy, I would have been superficially agreeing too.

Plus, the scandal of the detransitioners is building. So, no. I don’t agree that ‘young people’ will be more on board with the redefinition of women as they get older.

However, it is always good to put a question in to AIBU when relevant events are happening. It is often eye opening to those who are merely here to point their pointy fingers of shame.