Page 3 | Has the big question been put to AIBU ?

R0wantrees · 12/04/2021 11:35

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

― Lewis Carroll, 'Through the Looking Glass'

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/04/2021 11:37

Even though it was quite convoluted it was still contradictory!

I say, I did not assert that the majority of people do or do not say that transwomen are women.

But I did say that most people call trans women trans women

So, erm, 110% of the population took part in our popular poll‽‽

Fabulous!

R0wantrees · 12/04/2021 11:46

I haven't said whether or not the majority do or don't. However, most people call trans women "trans women" - see that? Two separate words - one is the adjective "trans" and the other in the noun "woman". The GC thing of conflating both words into a new word is just your thing - it's not something most people do.

Shizuku Having sorted my laundry, I need to put my clothes horse away. Should I put it in the understairs cupboard (as usual) or must I start phoning round to secure stabling and livery?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/04/2021 11:48

Maybe give it a sugar lump to keep it happy while you're doing that R0

R0wantrees · 12/04/2021 11:51

I have a spare apple, no sugar lumps or polo mints.

Shizuku · 12/04/2021 12:00

@R0wantrees

I haven't said whether or not the majority do or don't. However, most people call trans women "trans women" - see that? Two separate words - one is the adjective "trans" and the other in the noun "woman". The GC thing of conflating both words into a new word is just your thing - it's not something most people do.

Shizuku Having sorted my laundry, I need to put my clothes horse away. Should I put it in the understairs cupboard (as usual) or must I start phoning round to secure stabling and livery?

The fact remains - if enough people refer to trans women as women - then trans women are included in the definition of "woman" regardless of your wish that they didn't.

Look at the terms "transwoman" and "trans woman" on Google Ngram viewer for a snapshot of usage. You'll see you are loosing:

books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=transwoman%2C+trans+woman&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ctranswoman%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ctrans%20woman%3B%2Cc0

R0wantrees · 12/04/2021 12:05

I don't want to do a thread in AIBU if it's already been done before. I take long breaks from MN so often miss stuff.

Has there been a vote on opinions about the word woman? Basically - Is it based on your personality/gender for anyone to use, or is it sex based intended for adult human females, with an AIBU choice voting enabled.

I would like to know how much support there is for the legal protection of the word/definition woman (and man), especially from a site with so many female members and parents/carers of girls.

Ralph Lucas is a Conservative back bencher in The House of Lords.
May 5th 2020 he published clarification he had received from the government of the definition used for man and woman. This is based in Equality Act 2010
twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1257642470692868097

Lord Lucas wrote,

"Definitions. The government has helpfully pointed out the definitions that they use

"Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'

"Woman": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A female of any age'"

As "Man": from the Equality Act 2010: 'A male of any age'" therefore surely a male of any age may thus, and should for clarity, be described as a man and vice versa?

I note the UK Government definition fails to include reference to persons/ human beings which is an important omission. There are over 5000 species of mammals which are not human.

R0wantrees · 12/04/2021 12:11

Look at the terms "transwoman" and "trans woman" on Google Ngram viewer for a snapshot of usage. You'll see you are loosing

What the graph shows clearly is how very recent the vogue for online usage of both the terms 'transwoman' and 'trans woman'

Its an interesting reveal that you believe this proves I/we (?) are 'loosing'.

Shizuku · 12/04/2021 12:15

@R0wantrees

Look at the terms "transwoman" and "trans woman" on Google Ngram viewer for a snapshot of usage. You'll see you are loosing

What the graph shows clearly is how very recent the vogue for online usage of both the terms 'transwoman' and 'trans woman'

Its an interesting reveal that you believe this proves I/we (?) are 'loosing'.

"Its an interesting reveal that you believe this proves I/we (?) are 'loosing'."

Its an interesting reveal that you believe it doesn't imply that.

SmokedDuck · 12/04/2021 12:15

I think this has been done a lot of AIBU in various forms. I'd tend to avoid unless you have something new to present as it tends to feel like you are spamming with propaganda. On the other hand if there is something new to add, go for it.

I agree with whoever said that finding the right moment in real live conversations is the key. It can be tricky. I had a great opening the other day in terms of the conversation, except the setting would have been really inappropriate if it had not been well received and it would have ruined someone elses event.

You just have to keep your eyes and ears open.

Signalbox · 12/04/2021 12:19

The fact remains - if enough people refer to trans women as women - then trans women are included in the definition of "woman" regardless of your wish that they didn't

So presumably if enough people keep referring to trans women as male and men they will also be included in the definition of "men" and "male".

CorvusPurpureus · 12/04/2021 12:19

I don't think that's a great argument, Shizuku, as it would suggest that whether I refer to 'sea horses' or 'seahorses' (& predictive text prefers the second), I am doing so based on a belief that I'm talking about an aquatic equine mammal.

Whereas actually, of course, I & most people would consider that I'm talking about a fish, which has a commonly accepted English usage - distinct of course from its correct scientific name - based on the fact that, amusingly, it bears a superficial resemblance to a horse.

R0wantrees · 12/04/2021 12:30

*The fact remains - if enough people refer to trans women as women - then trans women are included in the definition of "woman" regardless of your wish that they didn

I have no wish to control other people's language choices.

I do think that it is important that people are free to accurately recognise and describe adult male humans as men (as per UK law ad government usage linked above). This has specific importance within the context of Safeguarding and Child Protection.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 12/04/2021 12:45

Look at the terms "transwoman" and "trans woman" on Google Ngram viewer for a snapshot of usage. You'll see you are loosing

Thats bollocks mate

Auto correct changes transwoman to trans woman....I would imagine most people aren’t arsed to change it

It does not mean in the slightest that the majority of people are using trans woman

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/04/2021 12:50

Its an interesting reveal that you believe it doesn't imply that. Oh thou art indeed disingenuous. Follow the link and see just what the scale is... ta da!

Occurrences in English across Google Books - at least 5 0s after the decimal point: 0.000006%

Again, as with many of your links, you're making a show of yourself!

AdHominemNonSequitur · 12/04/2021 13:02

Most people converted from the old word transwoman, to the new word Trans Woman, because the Politburo introduced it as new speak and started to call anyone who missed the space out a hateful terf bigot. Your graph nicely illustrated when they started to push it. Around 2005 I should say.

Helleofabore · 12/04/2021 13:14

@AdHominemNonSequitur

Most people converted from the old word transwoman, to the new word Trans Woman, because the Politburo introduced it as new speak and started to call anyone who missed the space out a hateful terf bigot. Your graph nicely illustrated when they started to push it. Around 2005 I should say.

Yes. quite.

If it wasn't considered hateful, most people using the space would no doubt cease to use it when seeing the flawed logic that goes with it bringing in groups of women to 'prove' a male is a woman.

HipTightOnions · 12/04/2021 13:15

I wonder what percentage of the many people who are not au fait with this topic would interpret “transwoman” or “trans woman” as a woman (a female woman, for avoidance of doubt) who identifies as a man?

AdHominemNonSequitur · 12/04/2021 13:18

Socio-linguistic engineering... And they would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling mums.

andyoldlabour · 12/04/2021 13:24

Shizuku

"If the majority of English-speaking people refer to trans women as "women" then that is what the word means,"

The majority clearly think that TWANW going by the comments sections in articles in newspapers. There are a couple of papers (Guardian and Independent) who never allow comments on this subject.

Kit19 · 12/04/2021 13:29

@HipTightOnions

I wonder what percentage of the many people who are not au fait with this topic would interpret “transwoman” or “trans woman” as a woman (a female woman, for avoidance of doubt) who identifies as a man?

I have seen a lot of people new to the topic make the assumption along with "dont be so mean, these men put themselves through so much pain and surgery and drugs! all they want is to use the loo in peace, no one really thinks they're an actual woman....." and then you start to explain about Self ID and the expectation that you're meant to be believe they are literal women

HermitsLife · 12/04/2021 13:32

Woman = Adult human female
Girl = human female between birth and adulthood
Man = Adult human male
Boy= human male between birth and adulthood

The fact we have to debate these simple definitions that have always existed blows my mind.

andyoldlabour · 12/04/2021 13:37

My very first hit on Google revealed this:

"A trans woman (sometimes spelled as trans-woman or transwoman)"

simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_woman

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/04/2021 13:39

As said, some people do interpret "trans woman" as an FTM trans person. Because they don't understand that we're supposed to treat them as if they are really the opposite sex.

allaboutthecrisps · 12/04/2021 13:50

Words are defined by usage. If the majority of English-speaking people refer to trans women as "women" then that is what the word means, regardless of whether you think it should.

This analysis is missing a couple of points. Firstly there are some definitions which are legally defined and solid. Although there can be no policing of how the terms are used in other context, protecting them in a context which is about protecting vulnerable people from harm (and we can all be vulnerable) is important. Given the harm done to women, this would seem to apply meaning that the word does potentially retain specific set meaning.

Secondly you need to look at the power processes which enable a definition to change. In this context the pressures to change the meaning are coming from people who grew up with male privilege. Does that not give you pause?

Are you suggesting a whole new word to protect the more vulnerable sex in our society? But then if trans women want to be included in that new definition what next?