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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Has the big question been put to AIBU ?

94 replies

GNCQ · 11/04/2021 21:36

So, the word woman

I don't want to do a thread in AIBU if it's already been done before. I take long breaks from MN so often miss stuff.

Has there been a vote on opinions about the word woman? Basically - Is it based on your personality/gender for anyone to use, or is it sex based intended for adult human females, with an AIBU choice voting enabled.

Has this already been done?
Would I be mad to start such a thread?
Would it get me banned?

Please advise xx

OP posts:
Faffertea · 12/04/2021 08:46

Nellodee
Sorry, thought you were being serious Grin. Although, as we’ve said before, isn’t it ridiculous that we can’t tell parody from truth anymore?!
Also need more caffeine.

SaturdayRocks · 12/04/2021 08:46

@SmiledWithTheRisingSun

I think more of us need to start having these conversations in real life. Rather than on an anonymous internet forum.

I thought people would think I was being bigoted discussing gender critical feminism. But turns out most of them agree with me!

Many are scared to mention it at work or in front of certain people.
But the more we talk about it, the more decision makers will have to take reality into account.

Let's do this!! ✊🏻✊✊🏼✊🏾

I have talked about this with two good friends recently. It feels quite scary to do that.

They both strongly agree with the viewpoint that people can’t change sex, woman means adult female, and that being non-binary is essentially self-indulgent naval-gazing.

I am a left-wing, socialist (alright, champagne socialist), feminist, LGBTQ ally, and it feels really odd to be in the non-woke camp on something. I do strongly question whether I am simply behind the times, over the hill (at 40-something), and out of touch. I am ready to admit that, if I think there is any truth in it. So I ask myself the question a lot.

But it feels like such a farce. The emperor’s new clothes. Nobody can define ‘gender’, ‘gender identity’, ‘man’, ‘woman’, etc, any more.

Words have lost their meaning.

People on the trans-activist side of the debate just cannot answer the reasonable questions put to them on these many, many threads.

What is a woman? What makes you feel so sure you’re a woman? What is a woman’s gender identity? What is gender? And so that makes me feel that this isn’t a progressive issue, but a misguided one.

I am all for individuals being treated with care and consideration. But I’m not OK with women’s - as a class - rights being trampled on, to accommodate a tiny, vocal minority.

So, anyway. I have started talking to my friends. People are starting to have these conversations in RL. JKR is often referenced. This isn’t just something I talk about on MN anymore.

Nellodee · 12/04/2021 08:53

No problem, Faffertea. It wasn’t obvious my post was meant to be humour looking back on it, as it really is the genderist definition of the word.

It’s just ridiculous that we are not allowed to have a word that defines us as a sex group, and if we had one, it would be appropriated immediately. It doesn’t matter what we call ourselves, what we think we are, exclusive of all men, is what transwomen feel the need to be.

Nellodee · 12/04/2021 08:58

We have the meaningful definition of a word, but are allowed no word to fit that definition. They have the word, but no meaningful definition to accompany it. It’s as though they feel the word woman was born into the wrong definition.

Sorry for the use of we and they, but all other sensible descriptors would make a nonsense of my musings. It’s very sad, though, that the only was I have to unambiguously separate two groups has become “us” and “them”.

Not my doing, though.

MazekeenSmith · 12/04/2021 08:59

Yes it was done
Loads of people got deleted and it was a mess but it led to the great mumsnet Spartacus awakening, mumsnet really thinking about their policies on moderating this discussion, breakaway Facebook groups that have led to huge amounts of activism and massive consciousness raising. Im not sure it would have the same impact now or be allowed to stand for long.

SaturdayRocks · 12/04/2021 09:07

Breakaway FB groups?

Original poster
GNCQ · 12/04/2021 09:24

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

I think it was 90%+
Ah that's great about the results. I shan't be starting such a thread there as it has been done.
OP posts:
Original poster
GNCQ · 12/04/2021 09:25

@MazekeenSmith

Yes it was done Loads of people got deleted and it was a mess but it led to the great mumsnet Spartacus awakening, mumsnet really thinking about their policies on moderating this discussion, breakaway Facebook groups that have led to huge amounts of activism and massive consciousness raising. Im not sure it would have the same impact now or be allowed to stand for long.
Interesting

Yes I would have predicted a "Swiss cheese" style thread... And bannings. Sad

OP posts:
Original poster
GNCQ · 12/04/2021 09:35

I think more of us need to start having these conversations in real life

This is completely true. However, I find you can't just suddenly start talking to eg the mum next to you at the school gates about "the big problem". Because you just sound mad. (I'm not suggesting you have done this or that you are suggesting anyone should do this, I'm just musing)

It's basically very hard to bring up "the conversation" without the right context.

I did it once with a Canadian who works at the BBC (so veh woke was he) and it was right during the McKinnon cyclist winning everything, so I couldn't resist bringing it up from a concerned position.
He literally ran a mile away from me and never came back.

Just thinking context is key, so it's like we're all waiting ready to strike at the right moment!

OP posts:
YouNoob · 12/04/2021 10:02

@Miltonma hello and welcome. You can post whenever you're ready or you don't even have to post, if you don't to. There's nothing to be scared of, it's just opinions after all The women on here (and yes, there are men too) are pretty welcoming and patient.

YouNoob · 12/04/2021 10:07

GNCQ I have brought it up at work, with my family and with friends. I got a positive reaction from my friends, a mixed bag from my family and complete bewilderment from people at work - it's just not on their radar. I think they thought I was a little crazy but I'll carry on talking about the issues.

Shizuku · 12/04/2021 11:02

Words are defined by usage. If the majority of English-speaking people refer to trans women as "women" then that is what the word means, regardless of whether you think it should.

R0wantrees · 12/04/2021 11:04

The Census is a good start point of conversation.
The successful Judicial Review brought by Fairplay For Women against the ONS was covered in MSM.
There is a lot of scope for discussion.

Original poster
GNCQ · 12/04/2021 11:08

@Shizuku

Words are defined by usage. If the majority of English-speaking people refer to trans women as "women" then that is what the word means, regardless of whether you think it should.
But the majority of English speaking people don't.
OP posts:
Original poster
GNCQ · 12/04/2021 11:09

@R0wantrees

The Census is a good start point of conversation. The successful Judicial Review brought by Fairplay For Women against the ONS was covered in MSM. There is a lot of scope for discussion.
That's true, there are opportunities right now aren't there
OP posts:
PineappleCakes · 12/04/2021 11:12

@Shizuku

Words are defined by usage. If the majority of English-speaking people refer to trans women as "women" then that is what the word means, regardless of whether you think it should.
But it would seem the vast majority of the English-speaking world only refers to natal females as "women" - then that is what the word means, so why can't trans activists accept that, regardless of whether they think it should?
Helleofabore · 12/04/2021 11:13

@Shizuku

Words are defined by usage. If the majority of English-speaking people refer to trans women as "women" then that is what the word means, regardless of whether you think it should.
I think you have an overinflated expectation that people do refer to transwomen as women. That is the problem of believing in a mantra rather than material reality. I also believe you have an overinflated expectation that when using the word 'woman' to refer to a transwoman the speaker means the same thing as woman = adult human female.

HTH

SageHoney · 12/04/2021 11:23

@OolieMacdoolie

It has been done approximately 52904 times before. Please resist the temptation.
Really???!!!!!??

OMG, I DID NOT KNOW that any woman had previously questioned the erasure of women - let alone that this had been done "appoximately 52904 times before"!! and that the women who questioned it had been effectively put in their place and all women therefore agree that we should now shut up about everything, forever.

This is a seriously life-changing revelation, @OolieMacdoolie, and I am holding my breath for you to link all of these instances !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh boy!!!!!! Grin Wink Shock Confused Blush Hmm

Shizuku · 12/04/2021 11:23

"I think you have an overinflated expectation that people do refer to transwomen as women."

I haven't said whether or not the majority do or don't. However, most people call trans women "trans women" - see that? Two separate words - one is the adjective "trans" and the other in the noun "woman". The GC thing of conflating both words into a new word is just your thing - it's not something most people do.

ANd the point still stands - if indeed it does become the majority usage, that is what the word means regardless of whether you think it should. In fact, even if a significant minority use it that way, then it is already one of the definitions of "woman".

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/04/2021 11:25

@Shizuku

Words are defined by usage. If the majority of English-speaking people refer to trans women as "women" then that is what the word means, regardless of whether you think it should.
If they did then there would have to have been something of a revolution. But they don't!

Oh! Unless you mean that nice thing we are all obliged to commit to. The thing that keeps all sane societies civl. You know, talking to a trans person and using their preferred name etc. Then yes, most people would do that with the trans person because the inter personal cmmunication is quite different.

Don't let basic politeness lead you to believe that anyone believes a human being can change sex. It is simply avoiding being a total gobshite to an individual. Being a civil human being.

We've had that discussion around you before though. I am guessing this one will flow passed you too!

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 12/04/2021 11:26

Shizuku, how do you define a transwoman? Is it any male who says they’re one, regardless of how they present? Just those who have full surgery? Or somewhere in between?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/04/2021 11:27

I haven't said whether or not the majority do or don't. However, most people call trans women "trans women" Do you want to look at that again.

Majority = most!

If you are going to insist that we use words as they are meant to be used!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/04/2021 11:33

The GC thing of conflating both words into a new word is just your thing - it's not something most people do.

This is complete nonsense. The spelling without a space is the way it used to be written.

HermitsLife · 12/04/2021 11:33

You beat me to it Curious.
What is words?

Does anyone else get the impression that FWR has recently been hijacked by Lewis Carroll and Roald Dahl or is it just me?

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 12/04/2021 11:34

@HermitsLife

You beat me to it Curious. What is words?

Does anyone else get the impression that FWR has recently been hijacked by Lewis Carroll and Roald Dahl or is it just me?

Also Kenneth Grahame.