Male friend's opposing attitude towards women is troubling

[Rae34]

I posted recently on a main board about this male friend in his mid 20s & someone suggested I try this board instead. Of late, the friendship has started to bother me as he contacts me too often & contacts me again when I dont reply. It can be emotionally taxing.

But what I am really bothered about is the person I know day to day and the draft scripts he is sending me (we are both writers)

• I'm part of a feminist organisation giving a platform to women (especially women who have been de platformed for no good reason of late). He has attended some of these online events we have hosted, one of the only men to do so of late. We have decent conversations in person.

• however he has started sending me scripts he is writing. He is always arrogant about it & never asks for feedback, just tells me to 'enjoy' them.

Well I am not enjoying them. I was quite shocked to find the portrayal of the female characters quite sexist. The women are promiscuous & unfeeling. The newest script idea sounds like a porn film with a title that reduces women to their body. I told him frankly that I didnt like the idea.

I am struggling with the person I have known day to day and the person who sits up late at night hammering out scripts about women like this.

It is setting off my creepometer big time although I have known him for 6 years and not had any major issues before. Can I approach this in any way or is this a sign that he isnt the friend he appears to be?

I think you should tell him you can't reconcile the person you know with the scripts and the way he writes women is shallow, stereotypical and unrealistic. So you don't enjoy them.

He's not a friend.

In fact this particular man probably hates women so much that he derives enjoyment from upsetting a feminist with his misogyny.

Give yourself permission to withdraw from the non-existent friendship.

When someone shows you who they are...

Tell him that you don't enjoy them and shall not read any more.

Sadly, given the quality of the shortlist for the Women's Fiction Prize - it's astonishing what misogyny and porn can end up lauded if it's offered by particular niche writers.

You got good advice on your other thread that this ‘friend’ is bad news: avoid him! Don’t read the things he sends you.

The thing is that he does seem genuine in person about women and caring about their rights. I wouldn't have been friends with him for 6years if he hadn't. It hasn't seem performative if you see what I mean.

I initially put this down to inexperience. He hasnt had much relationship experience and seems unable to fully understand women. But the last idea he sent was just awful. I am still shocked he thought it was ok.

I know for a fact he will never get anywhere with writing these and is wasting his time bothering. He is a good writer but the attitudes are awful.

It may not have seemed performative but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t

Men aren’t as thick as we give them credit for.

He knows you’re a woman. He knows your views on women’s rights. And yet he chooses to taunt you by sending you offensive things he writes about women.

They know what they’re doing! We need to stop making excuses for these men, and inventing reasonable explanations for their misogyny. There aren’t any!

OP, did you watch the Daniel Sloss video?

Deep down, I know most men are good, but when one in ten men are sh!! and the other nine do nothing, they might as well not f!!!ing be there. "Instead of having this f!!!ing hero complex and being, like, "I'm going to beat up a rapist, stop one, because I know it can be done, because I know how I f!!!ing failed at it.

Were there signs in my friend's behaviour towards women that I ignored? Yes. And then he raped my friend. That's on me until the day I die.

Talk to your f!!!ing boys. Get involved.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/entertainment/celebrity/scots-comedian-daniel-sloss-shares-23688472

Some discussion on this thread tho' that twitter link doesn't work now.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4189208-Daniel-Sloss-Everyday-Women-Are-Trying-Their-Hardest-To-Not-Get-Raped

I can't find the threads but there were women discussing their experience of male friends (good friends) walking them home from the pub because there was an active local rapist (in one case) or general danger in the other.

The first one, it transpired that the friend was the rapist. The latter - a few days later, he murdered a sex worker.

Sloss is more on point than I care to think.

It hasn't seem performative if you see what I mean.

And yet, it was.

He's not just telling you of the misogynist he truly is, he's scripting it, sending it to you and telling you to enjoy it.

This really isn't a question as to whether he is a true friend, it's a question of whether you are able to find acceptance that he deceived you as to his true character and rid yourself of his toxicity.

Has he always written in this style, or is it a recent development? Who does he think is the target audience? Certain types of genre fiction are full of lazy male/female stereotypes, but bluntly it can be very commercial.

If you're a professional writer, is it normal for your personality to always reflect whatever commission you're on?

I would ask him if he can explain how he can reconcile his interest in women's rights with this type of writing. The response could be revealing.

I would ask him if he can explain how he can reconcile his interest in women's rights with this type of writing. The response could be revealing.

Agreed, I'd be a little apprehensive that he is quite invested in the knowledge that he is shocking a friend and that he is exerting some degree of control over your reactions by the social interaction and connection that encourages you to read his work. For me, i's telling that he's not interested in your feedback on the writing.

Yes, just ask him. "Why would a guy interested in women's writes portray women in such a crappy way." See what he says.

Oh come on.

He knows exactly what he’s doing by sending you these scripts.

Next time he sends you a script to “enjoy” reply saying “actually, not that you’ve ever been interested in feedback, I haven’t enjoyed them. At all. It’s a pile of misogynist crap. Don’t send me anything else”. And then block him.

This is how women get conned into having a relationship (and children) with a man who turns out to be an abuser. They are socially adept, and have learned how to mask.

If you want to check this for yourself, just don't read any more of his scripts, don't respond, and don't react. See what happens.
He will escalate. You already know this as you say he keeps on if you don't reply. He's already worked out how many messages he has to send to get you to respond.

Just because he's on "your side" in one political struggle, doesn't mean he isn't an arsehole in other ways. I know when you feel like support is rare, trying to get your head round a loyal supporter not being worth having is hard. But imagine if you were say volunteering together for a disability charity, you had a disability and he was sending you unsolicited scripts with really disgusting and over sexualised content about disabled people... you'd see the creep factor then, right?

I was listening to this the other day

What I find very interesting is Benjamin Boyce's attitudes towards female power from minute 57 onward. He is very honest in his perception of a situation, he and Jane discuss it and he seems to reach a different understanding. I think honestly, that the only way forward is for men and women to talk to each other. At least initially.

Interested in your view on this interview (it is great btw). But I am making the point that I would at least talk to the bloke about what the issues are that are problematic, because cutting someone off without doing that is a missed opportunity perhaps.

There is a another great point made in this interview and it is that stereotyping sexes and refusing to understand each other's viewpoint serves neither sex well and ultimately the human race needs us to need each other.

🇲🇦

Sorry that was supposed to be a random red flag.

also want to say that our culture around sexual matters with the easy access to porn has served neither males nor females well in the last decade or so (probably longer), so education is considering female perceptions and needs will probably have been pretty sorely lacking - I hope I am not misunderstood, I am not trying to excuse his behaviour, but sometimes talking helps peopel understand better. Sometimes of course it doesn't in which case, cut him off :)

"- however he has started sending me scripts he is writing. He is always arrogant about it & never asks for feedback, just tells me to 'enjoy' them."

"Well I am not enjoying them. I was quite shocked to find the portrayal of the female characters quite sexist. The women are promiscuous & unfeeling. The newest script idea sounds like a porn film with a title that reduces women to their body. I told him frankly that I didnt like the idea."

You describe this man as your friend - why don't you just ask him what he's playing at? 'Oi, John, have you had a total personality transplant or have you always been this much of a wanker and I never noticed?' Or words to that effect. You've known him six years. You should be able to be blunt.

But I too am inclined to think this is all deliberate. He's getting off on getting you to read stuff he knows you'll dislike. Look at what you wrote -

"I initially put this down to inexperience. He hasnt had much relationship experience and seems unable to fully understand women."
One word - incel. Angry at women for not being at his beck and call and taking that anger out on a woman who has friendzoned him.

See him for what he is. Not a friend, and really fucking creepy.

P.S. - yeah, he's probably getting his recent writing ideas from porn. ,boak.

Jesus just ditch the creep. Why all this hand wringing?

Never trust a male feminist. I'm not even joking.

The cultural communications out there are harming boys/young men as well as girls/women. I think it is worth trying to reach common understanding. Isn't it always? The accusations levelled at feminists have always been as man haters. Young men have a lot of crap thrown at them and a lot of pressure equally. That is why I think it is worth a conversation, if that doesn't work and he is incapable of understanding the issues then yes ditch the creep, but real feminism is up against a lot these days. Conversations are worth having at every opportunity in my book.