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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What category do trans people fall in according to the GC model?

120 replies

CloudyMoment · 05/04/2021 14:05

I am trying to understand the following about the gender critical model:

If gender is something to be abolished or moved beyond, and if all there is, is the biological facts of sex, what category does it leave trans people in?

Do GC just want them to identify by the sex they are born in? Or do they want to create a separate legal / social category?

I mean.. gender abolition is not close to reality. There are still people who feel like they are the opposite sex or gender, or even "nonbinary", and I doubt this will vanish even if we abolish gender, because I've read so many accounts of trans people who say they feel the opposite sex since childhood. As much as I'd like to believe that this is will not be a problem in a society without gendering of children, I am not sure I can discount how trans people are telling me they feel now.

Personally I am close to adopting GC views - I feel somehow non-conforming or even "agender" or "nonbinary", but at the same time I feel that this doesn't make me any less of a woman- because just because I don't feel my gender as something tangible internally, doesn't imply that I am not that thing externally.

I am kind of stuck conceptually. I cannot view trans women and cis women as the same. I just don't feel it is right they inhabit the same category. At the same time, I don't feel it is right to force people into a category they feel is wrong for them - eg trans women into the male category, because it clearly causes them distress.

For all I've read about GC feminism I never see a clear answer for what category trans people should belong to, other than saying that males cannot be females.

OP posts:
Tibtom · 05/04/2021 14:09

Transwomen are men and transmen are women. They can be categorised, like the rest of us, by the sex they are for those spaces and services and for data collection where sex is relevant. Otherwise, like the rest of us, they can present however they please.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/04/2021 14:11

There are still people who feel like they are the opposite sex or gender, or even "nonbinary"

"Non binary" is meaningless. Everyone in the world is non-binary, because no one conforms 100% of the time to sex role stereotypes. If it wasn't for gender identity ideology it may have been a helpful term, but now it really isn't.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/04/2021 14:12

Transwomen are men and transmen are women. They can be categorised, like the rest of us, by the sex they are for those spaces and services and for data collection where sex is relevant. Otherwise, like the rest of us, they can present however they please.

YY. Transgenderism doesn't challenge stereotypes, it reinforces them.

Tibtom · 05/04/2021 14:14

In order to be transgender, non-binary, or agender you have to accept gendered roles (aka sex stereotypes). GC are critical of gendered roles and say anyone can take any role/clothing/wear makeup/ fulfil caring duties.

ListeningQuietly · 05/04/2021 14:15

Categories are for keeping people in their place.

Ignore categories and enjoy life.

rabbitwoman · 05/04/2021 14:15

Ooooooo..... I think that if these laws don't get passed - self ID and trans women in women's sports, etc, then an awful lot of trans women will go back to being men....

I also think there will be a lot of detransitioners - it will be the new identity to appropriate, and will leave genuine, damaged detransitioners behind.....

And genuine transgender people? I would hope they would have rights, responsibilities and proportionate representation, places to pee and change and compete fairly and with dignity, and be recognised as the unique individuals they are - but I fear they will have to pick up the pieces of a fractured community and try and rebuild trust and respect whilst the TRA army moves onto the next legitimate target.....

Advocates for this movement really cannot see the damage that's being done or that will need unpicking for decades. I hope there will be some accountability.....

Grumblesigh · 05/04/2021 14:17

Everyone has a biological sex. And everyone has a personality. Your biological sex need have no impact on how you present yourself to the world. So if you were born male, but want to take hormones to grow breasts, have surgery to alter your genitals, or maybe just wear skirts and dresses... you do you. The world is richer for it.

But your personal take on 'gender' doesn't make you the opposite sex to the one you were born, or entitle you to access safe spaces meant for a protected sex.

AnExcellentWalker · 05/04/2021 14:18

What even is "gender"? It's essentially a set of rules that society has laid down over time, that define what people are expected to do, what they are & aren't entitled to, & what they may achieve, according to their birth sex.

It's all a load of bollocks. Take that as you will. Notions about "gender" seem mostly to benefit men.

Grumblesigh · 05/04/2021 14:20

Just to add... any change made to your body happen when you are an adult, not a child. Children need to be protected from experimental medical procedures.

GoingThruTheMotions · 05/04/2021 14:20

Sex needs to be a protected characteristic legally to combat misogyny.

Trans needs to for similar reasons, but to combat transphobia and homophobia, although I personally would go with Gender Non Confirming as a legal catagory as this would provide a level of protection to lesbians, straight and gay people who don't want what they wear dictated (For example being made to wear heels to work).

All these protections are needed because of the patriarchy, toxic masculinity and misogyny. These traits are not coming from the GC feminist camp funny enough.

NotDavidTennant · 05/04/2021 14:25

The GC 'ideal' would be for everyone to be who the want to be and present how they want to present without needing a label or to be put in a 'box' of some kind. Biological sex would still exist as a material reality, but social expectations related to sex would be abolished, so there would be nothing for people to identify into or out of.

Tibtom · 05/04/2021 14:28

There are still people who feel like they are the opposite sex or gender

They have no idea what it is to be the opposite sex and never will have. They can only say they feel like how they imagine it is to be the opposite sex generally based on sexist stereotypes.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/04/2021 14:38

They have no idea what it is to be the opposite sex and never will have. They can only say they feel like how they imagine it is to be the opposite sex generally based on sexist stereotypes.

Precisely. The statement "I know I am a woman" by a male is a metaphysical statement based on an ideological worldview. It presupposes there is not already a category within "men" as a class that includes them, and that being a man means they can't express their true selves. It's regressive and sexist.

With regards to medical gender dysphoria, that is a serious psychological condition like other body dysmorphic conditions. I personally believe it's the case for only a tiny percentage of the people claiming to identify as the opposite "gender". Hence the push for self ID with no medical input or oversight.

GoingThruTheMotions · 05/04/2021 14:39

This reminds me of when me and my husband watched Butterfly- we were young and very woke.
At the end we discussed the puberty blockers dilemma (we bought the shows premise it was harmless) We both decided it was unlikely to happen for our children as we wouldn't push gender stereotypes on them. DS has dollies and cars. Pink, orange, blue and green wardrobe. Why pop everyone in a box? Give people a wealth of experiences and stop trying to dictate their personalities.

Whythesadface · 05/04/2021 14:44

I want there to be third section classed as unisex.
Anyone doesn't feel they fit the sex they were born in, can change in unisex rooms, compete in unisex games, wear unisex clothing. We will call the pronouns requested if we can understand them .But they need to admit they can never truly be.

JellySlice · 05/04/2021 14:50

Think of it like religion.

For some people their faith is fundamental to their sense of self. It informs how they behave, how they dress, how they eat. They are deeply emotionally harmed by being denied the right to express their faith.

Would we deny anybody the right to live according to their religion? Of course not. But, stop, we do - when it impinges on others’ lives.

Transgenderism is a neo-religion. Fundamentally important to its believers, but not to anybody else. Requiring non-believers to follow the credo of transgenderism is no different to any other kind of forced conversion or coercive theocracy.

Transgender people remain the sex they were born, regardless of drugs, body modifications or presentation. Society needs to accept them as they wish to present exactly as it needs to accept people who wear clothes associated with particular religions, or eat/avoid foods for religious reasons, or pray publicly, etc.

Thingybob · 05/04/2021 14:53

@Whythesadface

I want there to be third section classed as unisex. Anyone doesn't feel they fit the sex they were born in, can change in unisex rooms, compete in unisex games, wear unisex clothing. We will call the pronouns requested if we can understand them .But they need to admit they can never truly be.
Will you have male and female unisex categories?
Tibtom · 05/04/2021 14:54

Noone is unisex - - they are male or female (yes including those who are intersex). If sex doesn't matter then then there is no need for division for those things. I will use pronouns as they have always been used as a means to identify the individual not to validate them.

MonkeyNotOrgangrinder · 05/04/2021 14:54

My ideal would be that no one feels, or claims to feel, like the opposite sex because of sex stereotypes, but that men and women are free to wear what they like abs behave however they like. Clothing and behaviour should not be thought of as being ok for one sex but not the other.

Women should be allowed to say no to people of the opposite sex without getting threatened with rape and other violent assaults.

ErrolTheDragon · 05/04/2021 15:04

How about people just be an individual with unique characteristics and preferences? People generally have a mix of (stereotypical, culturally dependent) 'masculine' and 'feminine' traits. 'Gender' doesn't work well for categorising people, it never has - all it does is impose constraints.

Of course, each person will have certain realities. I'm short. I'm a female. I'm 60. I'm fair skinned. These realities mean I need cars designed for small people, certain sex based rights, some differences in healthcare versus older or younger people, and copious sunblock.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 05/04/2021 15:07

I never see a clear answer for what category trans people should belong to

oh for heaven's sake. why the obsession with categories? Like the world is one giant Jackie Magazine personality quiz

sometimes (like when choosing contraception, or deciding if a person needs a smear test or doing a basic assessment of the risk they could pose to others) a person's sex is relevant. In those cases it should be taken into account

their gender is never relevant to me, and they can have what ever one they want. I literally don't care

Whythesadface · 05/04/2021 15:08

We have unisex bathrooms already.
All we want is the return of single sex spaces.
If people refuse to use the woke option then it proves they think they matter more than us.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/04/2021 15:09

It's really simple when you stop all the angst.

Transwomen are men

Transmen are women

We all have every right to dress and act as we choose as long as we do no harm to anyone.

So a transwoman can dress and act in a stereotypically feminine manner if they choose. They remain male. They may find their lives become more or less comfortable. I neither know nor care, on an individual level.

A transman can dress and act in a stereotypically masculine manner with the same response from me as above.

Given that I, an adult human female, often dress in stereotypically masculine clothing and usually do not act in a stereotypically feminine ways many, who choose to believe in such things, would say I must be non binary. I would reply yes, me and a great many other people, male and female, who don't wear clothes for any other reasons than to be comfortable and not to go naked in public. Or no, because classifications of feminine and masculine are different across different societies and have no internal, inherent logic or global meaning.

So I wear a bra because I am large of breast and am happy that I found a version that accords me some comfort. Not because I am feminine, because I am female. Trousers because they are comfortable. Women's trousers because they are cut to accommodate the female form.

Reducing to absolute basics: 100 years ago a woman in trousers was an unusual sight and the woman concerned would be labelled. These days, here in the UK, it doesn't get noticed.

40 years ago men started wearing women's clothing, make up etc, not for the first time in history. They were looked at, called names and, over time, began to be a little more accepted. Then the 90s hit and men went all metrosexual, manbags and guyliner, Gordon Gecko and money reclaimed masculinity.

Now we have men who want to be women. Well, tough. Biology is biology. Dress how you want, live how you want but don't presume to tell women what we can and cannot discuss, accept and refuse when it comes to actually being a woman.

And it is very possible for a transwoman to live 'as a woman' for 30+ years and still know they are male, not to presume upon female sensibilities and to accept that their male body doesn't pass as actually being female, no matter how much surgery, voice and body coaching they may have had.

Like many other GC posters here I am well acquainted with transwomen and transmen, have been for decades. I am not guessing, not hating, not denying them anything. Just as they are not asserting that human beings can change sex.

Though that is, of course, not what so very many say across SM, or what Stonewall would consider acceptable.

GoingThruTheMotions · 05/04/2021 15:17

I now just have a mental age of these big dug trenches stealthily dug for people of the right qualities to fall into. Like in Tom and Jerry where a box trap is baited with cheese.

I feel the box for me would be baited with an advance copy of The Winds of Winter, salt and vinegar chips, Belgian beer and comfy pyjamas.

ListeningQuietly · 05/04/2021 15:17

Categories are for putting people in boxes.

I like the religion analogy up thread.
I do not expect my religious family and friends to become atheists.
They do not expect me to conform to their various faiths
We all respect each other's choices

Many TRAs do not respect the choices and spaces of others
(even those of some of the trans people they purport to support)

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