What category do trans people fall in according to the GC model?

[CloudyMoment]

I am trying to understand the following about the gender critical model:

If gender is something to be abolished or moved beyond, and if all there is, is the biological facts of sex, what category does it leave trans people in?

Do GC just want them to identify by the sex they are born in? Or do they want to create a separate legal / social category?

I mean.. gender abolition is not close to reality. There are still people who feel like they are the opposite sex or gender, or even "nonbinary", and I doubt this will vanish even if we abolish gender, because I've read so many accounts of trans people who say they feel the opposite sex since childhood. As much as I'd like to believe that this is will not be a problem in a society without gendering of children, I am not sure I can discount how trans people are telling me they feel now.

Personally I am close to adopting GC views - I feel somehow non-conforming or even "agender" or "nonbinary", but at the same time I feel that this doesn't make me any less of a woman- because just because I don't feel my gender as something tangible internally, doesn't imply that I am not that thing externally.

I am kind of stuck conceptually. I cannot view trans women and cis women as the same. I just don't feel it is right they inhabit the same category. At the same time, I don't feel it is right to force people into a category they feel is wrong for them - eg trans women into the male category, because it clearly causes them distress.

For all I've read about GC feminism I never see a clear answer for what category trans people should belong to, other than saying that males cannot be females.

Sorry, I meant a post-op transWOMAN will look for intents and purposes like a woman.

Will they? A few will, maybe.

Slightly off topic -how do people sympathetic to GC views manage their views?
Is it something you keep private? Share with others?
Most of my friends and people that I know would don't share these views. The tentative discussions I had after the JK Rowling saga broke out, basically alienated those with whom I 've discussed this.

(The JK Rowling thing was the moment in which I've realised I just cannot be supportive of the T in the LGBT, despite being bi myself.)/

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Sorry, I meant a post-op transWOMAN will look for intents and purposes like a woman.

Will they? A few will, maybe.

There have been transwomen in female facilities forever. Yes we notice.

We tolerated it because no one was screaming for our rights to be removed in law, for safeguarding to be removed, for children to be taught they can change sex and for teenagers to be put on a medical pathway for life before they even start to experience it. Our boundaries have been pushed and pushed and now we are pushing back.

Leave our laws and sex segregated spaces alone and campaign for your own. Stonewall has so much money and influence this would be easy.

Everyone I've spoken to in real life (one at a time, and discreetly) have had what I'd considered 'old fashioned sensible' opinions. A few have also had bad experiences with badly behaving cross dressers in their circle, and now consider such men somewhat suspiciously. NOTE- that is what they have said to me, I'm not making wide aspersions on individuals.

The only person with whom I haven't been able to be fully honest is a young person who thinks we should all state pronouns etc because that are trans and it would be so much easier if people did. Now, I love this person and don't want to lose them. I have to be very careful to follow their demands while also raising occasional concerns about their welfare- 'I've read an article and I'm worried that...' etc. It's all I can do. It's all they will tolerate.

I think you may be overthinking the issue, CloudyMoment, in an admirable effort to be fair to everyone.

Sex: mammals are either male or female there's no other possibility and they can't change sex. It really is as simple as this.

Gender: in relation to human beings, this used to be used as an alternative word for sex. What we now call gender, as in 'gender identity', was recognised in the past as being a collection of sex stereotypes: girls are dainty and like pink, boys are noisy and like football.

So 'gender' now means a set of sex stereotypes.

Feminists have always opposed sex stereotyping. We've fought for women's right to dress and live the way we want to. By shaking off sex roles (women should stay home and look after children, men should go out and earn money) feminism has helped to liberate men too.

We want men and women to be able to wear what they like and live as they like, as long as they don't harm anyone else.

However, liberation is a work in progress. We still have a long way to go, and some people cling to those old stereotypes.

Some people believe they should be (or actually are) a member of the opposite sex. They may believe this passionately, but it's still not true. They wish to dress etc as a member of the opposite sex, which is fine. But in the case of transwomen, their wish to live as a woman - including using women's single-sex facilities -- collides with women's right not to share those facilities.

Therefore we want men to ensure that transwomen feel safe in men's facilities.

we want men to ensure that transwomen feel safe in men’s facilities

I totally agree with you. I said this to dh today. He is also GC. I think he hadn’t really thought about this a great deal despite knowing that the majority of women don’t want laws allowing anyone saying they identify as a woman in our spaces. I think that is the issue. Men will be wtf and what are you doing here.... without thinking through the implication of trying to block transwomen from using men’s facilities.

I consider transwomen to be transwomen and transmen to be transmen.

I consider women to be women and men to be men.

Simple.

Just poppping in to reiterate the point about language: 'woman' is not a gender.

Woman, mare, sow, doe, ewe are all descriptors for the female sex of their respective species. These are humans, horses, pigs, deer and sheep respectively.

Everyone has a body, every body is sexed. Each is either female or male. There is no third sex. No one is both sexes. Some people have differences of sexual development, but all these people are still one or the other sex.

As for how to categorise trans people, they are either female or male, just like the rest of us. They can present however they like. They can alter their bodies to look different, but they cannot change sex.

No male of any species can ever become female. It helps no one to pretend otherwise, least of all women and girls.

If trans lobbyists had sought to gain acceptance of trans people as trans people I don't think we would have any of the problems we currently have.

Caveat: clownfish etc before one of the regulars pops up. I should have specified I was talking about mammals. My kingdom for an edit button!

'gender identity', was recognised in the past as being a collection of sex stereotypes: girls are dainty and like pink, boys are noisy and like football.

No that’s gender expression. Albeit stereotypes. Gender identity is the sex you identify as or the sex you feel you are or should be.

I wonder if once lockdown ends and all everyone comes out of hiding, reality is going to bite people's bums.
Woman do not run around in outfits suitable for parties and full make up, well 99% of the time we don't.
I do wonder how people are going to react when the packaging does match the goods.
If sports facilities will react if their bread and butter clients vote with their feet.
Silent protest of boycotting places has been suggested.

Gender identity is the sex you identify as or the sex you feel you are or should be.

You can't 'identify' with a sex as there's nothing to identify with. Other than the primary and secondary sex characteristics. But how can one identify as a vagina, for example?

Anovaneway

This is a popular talking point at the moment.

Say a child comes to you and says they are confused about their gender identity. They don't know if they feel like they are a boy or a girl. What do you say to them to help them work out their gender identity? What questions do you ask them?

"No that’s gender expression. Albeit stereotypes. Gender identity is the sex you identify as or the sex you feel you are or should be."

In what way can gender be expressed other than by stereotypes?
If gender identity is about sex, why isn't it sex identity?
And how can you identify as a sex? Sex isn't an identity, it's a descriptor. Like mass or material.

And how can you identify as a sex? Sex isn't an identity, it's a descriptor. Like mass or material.

Exactly. Sex is just a descriptor related to anatomy. It’s like saying someone identifies as having a stomach or two legs.

how do people sympathetic to GC views manage their views?

Sex is material reality. I'm as likely to talk about my 'gender critical views' as I am to discuss gravity. Every single human on the face of this planet was birthed by a woman. If you want to deny that, thats fine. You are entitled to your views but you are not entitled to remove my right to single sex spaces and services.

Sex: set at conception. Nothing will ever change it, and there are no drivers of evolution nudging humans to be able to change sex as there's no need for it. Sex isn't a feeling, an observation, something that was assigned or can be questioned. A person's sex is set at birth and will remain an etched in stone fact until that person's last breath.

Gender: made-up waffle to satisfy agendas. A woman who puts on a pair of trousers no more becomes a man than a chap who wears makeup to act on stage or in a film becomes a woman. A child choosing a doll rather than a truck does not do so in order to identify as a sexed person or to feel in a specific way but merely to play with the toy.

Gender identity is the sex you identify as or the sex you feel you are or should be. Means nothing. There is no "identification" as a sexed person but acknowledgement of one's sexed body.

Gender stereotypes are designed to keep women in subordinate positions in society and ideally should be got rid of as quickly as possible.

Gender identity is the sex you identify as or the sex you feel you are or should be.

You can't identify as a sex that you aren't. What are you identifying with?

Since when has the word 'identify' been used in that way, anyway? It's not a reflexive verb.

I identified three species of bird in the garden.

'I identified him as the man who stole my dog'

'I identified myself as a member of the WI' works, at a push.

Therefore we want men to ensure that transwomen feel safe in men's facilities.

Indeed, it is important to remember that it is not the responsibility of women but we’d all like everyone to feel safe as they go about their daily lives (including women )

Many transwomen seem to report that they DO feel safe in the men’s facilities. In the UK particularly we seem to have quite a tradition of men dressing in all sorts of creative ways and many seem to be quite keen to put on a dress for a night out.

If some people don’t feel safe in the men’s facilities for whatever reason then I would support their campaign for neutral third spaces and as pp points out with Stonewall’s healthy income it shouldn’t be an unattainable goal.

To have the conversation from a gender ideological point of view, you need to redefine words and language to the extent that there is no inherent meaning at which point you have to wonder what the point is!?!

Nothing to add except huge admiration for the clarity and calmness of the posts on this thread. Great question OP - it has really enabled some brilliant, positive expressions of GC perspectives.

@picklemewalnuts

To have the conversation from a gender ideological point of view, you need to redefine words and language to the extent that there is no inherent meaning at which point you have to wonder what the point is!?!

It does make things tricky - like shifting sand. Now we have the concept of ‘gender expression’ being about the stereotypes and ‘gender identity’ being about identifying as a particular gender? I’m not really sure what that all means irl.

I favour the simple approach - no one can change sex, we are all born male or female and have legally defined spaces and provisions that are segregated by sex.

@WallaceinAnderland

There have been transwomen in female facilities forever. Yes we notice.

We tolerated it because no one was screaming for our rights to be removed in law, for safeguarding to be removed, for children to be taught they can change sex and for teenagers to be put on a medical pathway for life before they even start to experience it. Our boundaries have been pushed and pushed and now we are pushing back.

Leave our laws and sex segregated spaces alone and campaign for your own. Stonewall has so much money and influence this would be easy.

OK fair enough. I don't want to dwell on this as it wasn't my main point (although if I did, I might point out that if there were any that passed so well you didn't notice, then you wouldn't know, because you didn't notice).

But my main point was about transmen. According to Tibtom's post I was replying to, the correct and proper changing room for them to use is the one in accordance with their chromosomal sex - the women's one. So therefore if a biological woman has the best possible treatment and surgery available to become the closest possible facsimile to a man that the current science is capable of creating - with a big, muscly, hairy manly body and face and highly realistic male genitals - then we're insistent that that person should change in the womens' changing room, in front of women and little girls of all ages?

I'm not trying to be provocative. I totally support women's rights to their own spaces. I just genuinely don't know what the answer to this is, it seems like an insoluble problem. And even if a solution were found, it would become insoluble again once you start considering all the (probably more numerous) in-between cases of trans people who don't completely pass one way or the other.