What category do trans people fall in according to the GC model?

[CloudyMoment]

I am trying to understand the following about the gender critical model:

If gender is something to be abolished or moved beyond, and if all there is, is the biological facts of sex, what category does it leave trans people in?

Do GC just want them to identify by the sex they are born in? Or do they want to create a separate legal / social category?

I mean.. gender abolition is not close to reality. There are still people who feel like they are the opposite sex or gender, or even "nonbinary", and I doubt this will vanish even if we abolish gender, because I've read so many accounts of trans people who say they feel the opposite sex since childhood. As much as I'd like to believe that this is will not be a problem in a society without gendering of children, I am not sure I can discount how trans people are telling me they feel now.

Personally I am close to adopting GC views - I feel somehow non-conforming or even "agender" or "nonbinary", but at the same time I feel that this doesn't make me any less of a woman- because just because I don't feel my gender as something tangible internally, doesn't imply that I am not that thing externally.

I am kind of stuck conceptually. I cannot view trans women and cis women as the same. I just don't feel it is right they inhabit the same category. At the same time, I don't feel it is right to force people into a category they feel is wrong for them - eg trans women into the male category, because it clearly causes them distress.

For all I've read about GC feminism I never see a clear answer for what category trans people should belong to, other than saying that males cannot be females.

@CloudyMoment

So am I right to understand if as "gender shouldn't be the basis of legislation, sex should"?

How can gender be the basis for any legislation since no one seems capable of defining it?

Woman isn't a gender.

It has always meant adult human female.

Of course society piles a whole load of expectations assumptions etc onto the words woman, man. As happens with many other words.

In the end that doesn't mean woman describes gender and nothing else. It describes sex and people attach gendered assumptions to it.

That some people think it only means an assortment of behaviours and clothes is really depressing tbh.

I want trans women to accept that they are not actual women, and then the rest doesn’t matter, because if they accept they can’t be treated as if they are actual women in society, and therefore need to respect and stay out of our single sex spaces, sports, and law, and they don’t demand that others treat them as if they are, then I don’t think we have a problem.
Present yourself however you want and reject gender stereotypes, and most importantly accept that biological sexuality is a universal immutable fact and that your concept of your gender identity is completely irrelevant to everyone else except you.

This was posted on another thread recently. Quite long but fascinating re trying to pigeonhole genders and it ends up in a tight aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

Sex not sexuality obviously

@NCJustgetoverit

I want trans women to accept that they are not actual women, and then the rest doesn’t matter, because if they accept they can’t be treated as if they are actual women in society, and therefore need to respect and stay out of our single sex spaces, sports, and law, and they don’t demand that others treat them as if they are, then I don’t think we have a problem. Present yourself however you want and reject gender stereotypes, and most importantly accept that biological sexuality is a universal immutable fact and that your concept of your gender identity is completely irrelevant to everyone else except you.

This ^^

Gender doesn't really exist does it. It's not an actual thing. The word could be abolished and it would make no difference to anyone.

Sex is what enables life. Without males and females, all species would become extinct.

Stop overcomplicating things, wear what you want and lobby government to make extra provision for your needs. Leave everyone else's rights alone. Live and let live.

I dont expect anybody to express themselves through the gender stereotypes associated with their sex. I dont think men shouldnt wear dresses or makeup if thats what they enjoy. I dont expect people to necessarily feel at ease with their bodies. Its nice if they do, but feeling at odds with your body and appearance, doesnt mean it should have been different.

As far as trans people go, the only thing that really pisses me off is the rewriting of reality and the redefinition of language to be more inclusive of things it was never meant to mean.

I want trans women to accept that they are not actual women, and then the rest doesn’t matter, because if they accept they can’t be treated as if they are actual women in society, and therefore need to respect and stay out of our single sex spaces, sports, and law, and they don’t demand that others treat them as if they are, then I don’t think we have a problem.
Present yourself however you want and reject gender stereotypes, and most importantly accept that biological sexuality is a universal immutable fact and that your concept of your gender identity is completely irrelevant to everyone else except you.

This. All power to you, and your personal identity and expression, but I have other things I consider more important on which I'd rather focus, both personally and in terms of feminist activism.

Personally I do agree that it is hard to go by "feeling like a certain gender". I don't feel like a woman on most days. I'd really struggle to point to anything that makes me a woman, other than being female. Furthermore I see the implication of "gender trumps sex" as horrifying... because by that definition I'd not be a woman, but an impostor.

However, I had it "explained to me", that it's about having a mental map of ones body, that doesn't match the physical characteristics a person has. A bit similar to how people with phantom limbs feel like, I guess?

However, I had it "explained to me", that it's about having a mental map of ones body, that doesn't match the physical characteristics a person has. A bit similar to how people with phantom limbs feel like, I guess?

Maybe for some (those with medical body dysmorphia). But I'm still not sure why everyone else should lose their sex based rights because of it.

However, I had it "explained to me", that it's about having a mental map of ones body, that doesn't match the physical characteristics a person has.

A mental image of oneself should not redefine the rest of the population.

However, I had it "explained to me", that it's about having a mental map of ones body, that doesn't match the physical characteristics a person has.
My mental map is 30 years out of date and two sizes too small.
It does not include grey hair or wrinkles.
Does not make it accurate

@CloudyMoment

Personally I do agree that it is hard to go by "feeling like a certain gender". I don't feel like a woman on most days. I'd really struggle to point to anything that makes me a woman, other than being female. Furthermore I see the implication of "gender trumps sex" as horrifying... because by that definition I'd not be a woman, but an impostor.

However, I had it "explained to me", that it's about having a mental map of ones body, that doesn't match the physical characteristics a person has. A bit similar to how people with phantom limbs feel like, I guess?

I have a certain mental image of my body. In it I am absolutely not 50 and fat. I'm a size 12, about 22! and I waltz through my days confidently until that moment I catch sight of myself in a shop window. It's devastating.

Other moments of dysphoria include choosing bold, radically cut clothes from trendy shops. My eyes alight on them with joy and a drag my haul back to the changing rooms- only to discover that I'm not 22 and slim anymore and I look ridiculous.

I hate my body. I've tried starving it, exercising it, medicating it... I've considered radical surgery.

@ListeningQuietly said it far more succinctly!

Does changing clothing, hairstyles and names really alleviate the mental map problem though? Because most transwomen do no more than that.

I don't give a shit how anyone identifies - all the very best to you. I just want to retain single sex spaces in situations where women and girls are locked up, sick, fleeing abusive men, undressed, vulnerable or playing competitive sports. And I want to retain the language to talk about myself and my body.

If men want to negotiate any of that then I respectfully suggest that they stop telling me about their identities and their feelings and start acknowledging and getting to grips with male violence and male sexual abuse. Then maybe, just maybe we could talk about some of it, although they will still, as a class, be bigger, stronger and faster than me, however they identify.

Hmmm I also must have dysphoria or some kind of mental map defect as I also have a certain mental image of me and my body. It certainly is not size 20, 50 and disabled. I’m size 8/10 and 26. And when I look in the mirror, I have a regular wtf moment.

@picklemewalnuts
Don't be devastated. Either take action or channel your inner Helen Mirren and give less fucks.

I saw a thing on Twitter about a trans person struggling with lockdown because nobody could see how vigorously trans they were.
Its all about the externalities and validation from others.

I prefer internal validation that getting old is better than the alternative.

I don't feel it is right to force people into a category they feel is wrong for them - eg trans women into the male category, because it clearly causes them distress

Are people forced into categories or do you just fall into them depending on what is being categorised?

If we get to pick our sex category why not age or ethnicity?

@Tibtom

Transwomen are men and transmen are women. They can be categorised, like the rest of us, by the sex they are for those spaces and services and for data collection where sex is relevant. Otherwise, like the rest of us, they can present however they please.

Isn't there a difficult contradiction there though?

If you take fully post-op transpeople, a transman after a successful operation will look for all intents and purposes, to someone not looking very hard, like a woman (and in the most successful cases, will "pass" even to people looking more closely). A post-op transman, OTOH, will look like a man.

I thought the GC argument (which I support) is that women shouldn't have to have "men" in their private spaces because of sexual boundaries, fear of violence, the right to privacy etc. But now you seem to be arguing that it's perfectly OK to have someone who looks for all intents and purposes like a man, right down to having penis and balls, in a women's changing room, as long as they have two X chromosomes (which noone can see so will make no difference to anyone). It's absolutely not OK, on the other hand, to have someone in there who looks completely like a woman (right down to having a vagina) if they have - again hidden inside them where noone can see - a Y chromosome?

Do you really mean this - that you'd have no problem with a 100% "manly" transman undressing in front of your daughter? How does this make sense?

Sorry, I meant a post-op transWOMAN will look for intents and purposes like a woman. EDIT FUNCTION NOW PLEASE!

I don't really care, for as long as it does not affect me or my kids.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Another way to look at it:

Can I, as a person born female, be a transwoman? If I identify as a transwoman can I become one?

Or would this be a most unfair and offensive appropriation of something I can never possibly be, or truly understand enough to claim it, no matter how much I may want to?

And what is the sole barrier to my joining this group? It's not unkind gatekeeping on the part of transwomen: it's just simply the fact of my sex.

This is an excellent point, I haven't though of it before, but it is an interesting perspective. Thank you.

And thank you for the point that multiple users have made that the mental image we have of ourselves doesn't match our physical realities quite frequently.