Dr Debbie Hayton interview

[ChristinaXYZ]

In case you haven't seen it.

“I worry that trans people are being used in a political campaign to compromise women’s spaces”

I would just like to say that I have never in all my time on here seen R0wan behave in a remotely uncivil manner to anyone. A lot of the time she doesn't even engage with individual posters, instead contributing factual, archived material that is already in the public domain.

So if I only want to employ a female carer for my frail elderly mother with dementia, can I trust the DBS certificate?

Does this strengthen or weaken safeguarding?

As was demonstrated in the Judicial Review successfully brought by Fairplay For Women against ONS in respect of the census question about sex, government issued primary identification documents such as passport and driving licence can have the sex marker changed by self-identification.
Employers of male nurses, carers, doctors, social workers or teachers who have opted to change their passport sex marker and hold a DBS certificate stating 'female' would find it very difficult to respect female patient /service users/pupils' right and need for same sex personal/intimate care and space.

December 31, 2017 iNews:
'NHS trust apologises to woman after ‘nurse with stubble and deep voice’ tried to take smear test'
(extract)
"The NHS has apologised to a woman who was left “embarrassed and distressed” after a nurse with stubble and a deep voice was going to carry out her cervical smear test at hospital.

The woman requested a female NHS nurse to perform the intimate procedure but was dismayed when a staff member with “an obviously male appearance” greeted her.

When the patient pointed out the mistake, the nurse replied: “My gender is not male. I’m a transsexual.”

The woman declined to go ahead with the examination – given to women aged 25 to 49 every three years and every five years for women aged 50 to 64 – and complained about her treatment. She stressed her complaint was not about the nurse’s appearance or gender status." (continues)

“[It was] weird where somebody says to you: ‘My gender is not male’ and you think: ‘Well, what does that even mean? You are clearly a man’, the woman told the Sunday Times. “[The nurse] had an obviously male appearance . . . close-cropped hair, a male facial appearance and voice, large number of tattoos and facial stubble.”

The patient said it was “bad enough for a fortysomething mother”, but the effect of such an incident on her 17-year-old daughter would have been much worse." (continues)
inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-woman-transgender-nurse-smear-test-114009

One would hope that even newly qualified lawyers were able to accurately recognise the legal implications of a male HCP/carer carrying out an intimate procedure on a woman without her informed consent.

"Being one's true self" is an entirely subjective experience. Being a transwoman does not make you female. Sex based provisions and protections exist for a reason. The reason has not changed, and so long as we live on the earth in a human body it most likely never will.

Trying to make an equivalence between equality laws as they relate to gay men is based an inherently faulty line of reason. Gay men simply wanted full equal civil rights and provisions; they were not in the business of denying their essential maleness, or seeking access to female provisions and services. How a gay man feels about himself, or whether or not he is being his " true self" is his concern, and his concern alone. It has got nothing to do with anyone else in so far that he is not making demands on others, other than to simply let him be.

@Floisme

I would just like to say that I have never in all my time on here seen R0wan behave in a remotely uncivil manner to anyone. A lot of the time she doesn't even engage with individual posters, instead contributing factual, archived material that is already in the public domain.

It is very odd that R0wans posts have been deleted - as you say it is often just established facts available in the public domain.

I am disappointed that yet again we are being accused of hate and sneered at for having ‘outdated’ views. There is nothing outdated about safeguarding women and children and as we can see by the issues currently being campaigned for vigorously by certain groups we still have a huge mountain to climb to even maintain basic safeguarding.

Current live safeguarding issues:

• A campaign to lower the legal age of consent to sex to 10.
• A campaign to prevent gender questioning children from obtaining any mental health assistance that doesn’t involve transitioning them and doesn’t involve addressing co- morbidities.
• A campaign to remove single exceptions from the EA 2010 which would remove the possibility of all single sex spaces and provisions ie same sex carers etc.
• A campaign to allow children to take powerful drugs that will permanently change their body and damage their long term health and make them infertile.

Have I missed anything? All of these campaigns are not some random wishful thinking by fringe groups - these are powerful international groups (ILGA, Stonewall, The Good Law Project), largely funded by the taxpayer and as we’ve seen, with very influential access to government.

They are a threat.

The human condition is not " ridiculous"; but it is a struggle for us all.
While one may imagine oneself to be almost anything, it does not make it a measurable reality. Reality matters, and it is the plane on which human beings seek to devise rules and regulations and to implement measures. Sex is real. It has real consequences, as well as very subtle markers which can be detected and/or observed.

If one is happy in one's own skin and at journey's end - as a result of having struggled with the human condition and arrived at a place in which one can find some measure of peace - then there is no real reason to impose upon others, or demand that the world reflect you back yourself.

Trans rights are human rights in that we are all human and we all struggle with that condition. The law is shaped so as to afford some basic protections and dignity to us all. Trans rights do not supersede sex based rights and protections.

Only by conflating sex with the concept of gender can one begin to erode sex based protections. As many of the links provided by Rowan suggest, this can often very much seem to be the goal. Therefore there is an inherent conflict of perceived rights. You generally cannot force the world to accept an ideology that it does not recognise, except through force and repression.

Ideology, a form of social or political philosophy, or a system of ideas, that aspires both to explain the world and to change it

December 31, 2017 iNews:
'NHS trust apologises to woman after ‘nurse with stubble and deep voice’ tried to take smear test'

I also saw a situation recently where a mother received a letter that her severely disabled (non verbal) daughter could not be guaranteed same sex intimate care as the special school she attended did not record the sex of their employees. They recorded ‘gender’ on a self declaration basis.

Can anyone imagine any possible safeguarding issues there?

Trying to make an equivalence between equality laws as they relate to gay men is based an inherently faulty line of reason.

It also denies the existence of lesbian and bisexual women and the role they played in the gay rights' movement, not just in securing equal rights for homosexual people, but in exposing the co-option/infiltration of the movement by men intent on child sexual abuse.

current thread, InspiralCoalescenceRingdown wrote:
"This piece by Anna Slatz is timely - covers NAMBLA in the States, rather than PIE in the UK, and mentions the ILGA: 4w.pub/lesbians-vs-pedophiles/
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4205956-Unite-Unions-and-Many-Other-LGBT-Organisations-Lobby-Government-to-Lower-the-Age-of-Consent

09 Apr 2021
'Lesbians vs. Pedophiles: A Recent History
Forty years ago, lesbians booted pedos out of the gay rights movement. Is it time to do it again?'
(extract)
'Last March, the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans, and Intersex Association (known as ILGA in its short form) co-sponsored a declaration which included a demand for the reform of laws which limit the "recognition" of an adolescent’s "agency" to consent to sex.* An "adolescent," by international standards, is a youth of 10-19 years of age.

This declaration, and its stuffed-in mandate, flew relatively under the radar, with very few activists groups or media outlets catching the sneaky addition buried on page 5 among a host of other, more reasonable, demands.

This is not the first time the ILGA has pushed to expand access to minors for sex. In fact, the last time such a thing had happened was in the 1990s, and the ILGA was expelled from its consultative status with a UN body for having ties to NAMBLA – the North American Man-Boy Love Association. NAMBLA is the oldest organized "pedophile rights" group in the world.

In the midst of the gay liberation movement, NAMBLA managed to be accepted by mainstream gay activist organizations...

...until the lesbians fought them off.

It all started in 1978, when 24 adult men were arrested in Revere, Massachusetts for sexually abusing minor boys. Shortly after, the gay-rights magazine, the Body Politic, released an article defending the men. Titled "Men Loving Boys Loving Men," the article was written by prominent gay journalist Gerald Hannon, and effectively romanticized the concept of "man-boy love" as natural. The article profiles a teacher friend of his who was in romantic relationships with minor boys in his class. Hannon waxed poetic about these relationships – the poetry, the lust, the sexual trust – as though it was all fantastic and innocent. Removed of reference to age, the article could have almost been mistaken for some grand love story.

But it wasn't. It was about pedophiles – specifically, those who preyed on young boys.

Hannon's article resulted in the Toronto office of the Body Politic being raided by Canadian federal police, and sparked a wave of pedophiles infecting the gay rights community." (continues)

In 1984, shortly after lesbians unsuccessfully tried to have NAMBLA removed from the Los Angeles pride parade, NAMBLA held a conference in the San Francisco Pride Center. Among the men they included in their panels on adult-child sexual relations were prominent gay rights activists like Harry Hay – one of the most well-respected gay rights activists of all time – and Jim Kepner, who continued to push NAMBLA's agenda in gay circles.

But in 1986, the lesbians and their hard-fought battle won out. NAMBLA was removed from the Los Angeles pride parade." (continues)

@IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk

December 31, 2017 iNews: 'NHS trust apologises to woman after ‘nurse with stubble and deep voice’ tried to take smear test'

I also saw a situation recently where a mother received a letter that her severely disabled (non verbal) daughter could not be guaranteed same sex intimate care as the special school she attended did not record the sex of their employees. They recorded ‘gender’ on a self declaration basis.

Can anyone imagine any possible safeguarding issues there?

Anyone who does not recognise/respect the very serious Child Protection issues in such a case is demonstrating that they are a potential Safeguarding risk. A disabled non-verbal child is extremely vulnerable and such a school appears unable to fulfil its Duty of Care to her.

'Last March, the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans, and Intersex Association (known as ILGA in its short form) co-sponsored a declaration which included a demand for the reform of laws which limit the "recognition" of an adolescent’s "agency" to consent to sex. An "adolescent," by international standards, is a youth of 10-19 years of age.

Also in Spring 2020, 'NASUWT International Solidarity' magazine reported on the EI (Education International) Conference held the previous July in Thailand. This includes outline of Dr Hayton's speech which secured the NASUWT proposal (page 15):

'LGBTI Justice Fight Continues'
"There is still a great deal of work to be done on securing equal rights and justice for all LGBTI people, the NASUWT told delegates at EI World Congress.
NASUWT National Executive Member Debbie Hayton said teachers played a key role in “ensuring that schools, colleges and higher education institutions are free from the hatred, prejudice and discrimination of LGBTI people.”
Ms Hayton said LGBTI rights were fundamental human rights, enshrined in international laws.
“These rights are non-negotiable,” she told delegates.
But she said that, despite this, lesbians, gay men, bisexual, trans and intersex people are exposed to discrimination, violence and intimidation, based on irrational fear, prejudice and hatred of LGBTI people.

The NASUWT secured commitments by EI affiliates worldwide to:

(i) support member organisations in providing information, support and training to challenge homophobia, biphobia and transphobia;
(ii) highlight the need for global and national actions to ensure that all teaching curricula are LGBTI-inclusive;
(iii) include LGBTI equality in all campaigns for the right to quality education for all children, young people and adults;
(iv) actively support LGBTI campaigning organisations such as the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA) and its member organisations in securing equal rights for LGBTI people around the world; (continues)

www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/e50a99f1-4dd4-43a9-b4ac5be3f9aa20f2.pdf

Last March, the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans, and Intersex Association (known as ILGA in its short form) co-sponsored a declaration which included a demand for the reform of laws which limit the "recognition" of an adolescent’s "agency" to consent to sex. An "adolescent," by international standards, is a youth of 10-19 years of age.*

In 1984, shortly after lesbians unsuccessfully tried to have NAMBLA removed from the Los Angeles pride parade, NAMBLA held a conference in the San Francisco Pride Center. Among the men they included in their panels on adult-child sexual relations were prominent gay rights activists like Harry Hay – one of the most well-respected gay rights activists of all time – and Jim Kepner, who continued to push NAMBLA's agenda in gay circles.

Fucking hell, it's like whack a mole.

[quote R0wantrees]'Last March, the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans, and Intersex Association (known as ILGA in its short form) co-sponsored a declaration which included a demand for the reform of laws which limit the "recognition" of an adolescent’s "agency" to consent to sex. An "adolescent," by international standards, is a youth of 10-19 years of age.

Also in Spring 2020, 'NASUWT International Solidarity' magazine reported on the EI (Education International) Conference held the previous July in Thailand. This includes outline of Dr Hayton's speech which secured the NASUWT proposal (page 15):

'LGBTI Justice Fight Continues'
"There is still a great deal of work to be done on securing equal rights and justice for all LGBTI people, the NASUWT told delegates at EI World Congress.
NASUWT National Executive Member Debbie Hayton said teachers played a key role in “ensuring that schools, colleges and higher education institutions are free from the hatred, prejudice and discrimination of LGBTI people.”
Ms Hayton said LGBTI rights were fundamental human rights, enshrined in international laws.
“These rights are non-negotiable,” she told delegates.
But she said that, despite this, lesbians, gay men, bisexual, trans and intersex people are exposed to discrimination, violence and intimidation, based on irrational fear, prejudice and hatred of LGBTI people.

The NASUWT secured commitments by EI affiliates worldwide to:

(i) support member organisations in providing information, support and training to challenge homophobia, biphobia and transphobia;
(ii) highlight the need for global and national actions to ensure that all teaching curricula are LGBTI-inclusive;
(iii) include LGBTI equality in all campaigns for the right to quality education for all children, young people and adults;
(iv) actively support LGBTI campaigning organisations such as the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA) and its member organisations in securing equal rights for LGBTI people around the world; (continues)

www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/e50a99f1-4dd4-43a9-b4ac5be3f9aa20f2.pdf[/quote]
How can anyone tackle homophobia when there is no definition of homosexuality?

It ceases to amaze me that these words are allowed to change their meaning as it suits.

Fucking hell, it's like whack a mole.

This is why (until relatively recently) Safeguarding and Child Protection frameworks constantly evolved to close loopholes and strengthen protections in response to ever present risk by abusers. They became stronger, not weaker.

The primary principle of Safeguarding is to recognise and identify specific risk and then take action to mitigate that risk. Accepting that it is not possible to eradicate risk entirely.

There is systemic failure of Safeguarding and Child Protection frameworks.

'Last March, the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans, and Intersex Association (known as ILGA in its short form) co-sponsored a declaration which included a demand for the reform of laws which limit the "recognition" of an adolescent’s "agency" to consent to sex. An "adolescent," by international standards, is a youth of 10-19 years of age.

I don't have enough expletives.

Age 10 is still in primary school and still - for most - not even started puberty. CHILDREN - YOUNG CHILDREN. How on earth can anyone think this is an OK think to campaign for? People supporting this are an active threat to children.

Women really need to rise up against this sort of shit.

And I didn't know this, and I have young children, and that is why silencing R0 is denying me access to information that will help me safeguard my kids.

This is important, women sharing information like this is important.

@OldCrone

A trans person is checked just as effectively as anyone else, the only difference being that part of that check is concealed from the employer to preserve previous gender identity.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'preserve' here, but are you saying that the person's actual sex, as observed at birth, is concealed from the employer? That is what concerns us.

So a man who 'identifies as' a woman can conceal the fact that he is male from his employer. Is this how a transwoman in Scotland came to be manager of a rape crisis centre, a post which was only supposed to go to a person born female?

Im intrigued by this post. You say this was 'a post which was only supposed to go to a person born female'.

Supposed how? In your view? By some specification somewhere? Intrigued to know what you mean.

There would appear to be two possibilities. Either te appointment panel knew of Mahiri's personal background and appointed her nevertheless, or did not know, in which case we are into 'so what' territory,

@IloveJKRowling

'Last March, the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans, and Intersex Association (known as ILGA in its short form) co-sponsored a declaration which included a demand for the reform of laws which limit the "recognition" of an adolescent’s "agency" to consent to sex. An "adolescent," by international standards, is a youth of 10-19 years of age.

I don't have enough expletives.

Age 10 is still in primary school and still - for most - not even started puberty. CHILDREN - YOUNG CHILDREN. How on earth can anyone think this is an OK think to campaign for? People supporting this are an active threat to children.

Women really need to rise up against this sort of shit.

And I didn't know this, and I have young children, and that is why silencing R0 is denying me access to information that will help me safeguard my kids.

This is important, women sharing information like this is important.

Why use the word adolescent? If they don't mean the official WHO definition, why use it?

Who uses a nebulous word when explicitly talking about the age of sexual consent?

@Floisme

As far as I can see, the rants on this thread are coming from one direction. Very interesting.

Really? Its not my posts being removed for inappropriate content.

This is important, women sharing information like this is important.

Sheila Jeffries described transgenderism as "part of the 'men's sexual rights movement'" and recounted (failed) attempts to push the boundaries of women's spaces back in the 1970s.

Speech is from the first 'We Need to talk' event in 2017 which followed Maria Maclachlan being assaulted at Speakers Corner whilst women waited to find out where they could meet to discuss proposed changes by UK Government to the GRA.
This is important:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoaCr2qtC-w

So a man who 'identifies as' a woman can conceal the fact that he is male from his employer. Is this how a transwoman in Scotland came to be manager of a rape crisis centre, a post which was only supposed to go to a person born female?

Equality Act 2010
'Balancing rights in single-sex services'
"Exception allowing single sex services to discriminate because of gender re-assignment

The third exception (Schedule 3, paragraph 28) allows providers of separate or single-sex services to provide a different service to, or to exclude, someone who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. This includes those who have a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), as well as someone who does not have a GRC but otherwise meets the definition under the Equality Act 2010.

Application of this exception must be objectively justified as a means of achieving a legitimate aim. An example given in the explanatory notes to the Act is that of a group counselling service for female victims of sexual assault where the organisers could exclude a woman with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if they judge that clients would be unlikely to attend the session if she was there.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmwomeq/1470/147010.htm

There would appear to be two possibilities. Either te appointment panel knew of Mahiri's personal background and appointed her nevertheless, or did not know, in which case we are into 'so what' territory,

So what???

So if I only want to employ a female carer for my frail elderly mother with dementia, can I trust the DBS certificate?

No. It will return information to satisfy conviction history etc but it will obscure the sex of the proposed carer. As will any DBS result through the sensitive service.

This means that the single sex exemptions regarding employment are impossible to enforce. You cannot ask to see a GRC or reveal the existence of a GRC in an official capacity. The DBS returns a misrepresentation of sex.

Even if an obvious male person is sat in front of you and your job vacancy uses legal single sex exemptions, you have no workable way, as an employer, to say to the applicant, "Sorry, you're not of the right of sex so the job isn't open to you."

Really? Its not my posts being removed for inappropriate content.

As long as you evade engaging with the content of what's been said, Robin I'm going to assume you haven't any arguments.
I find it strange that you have a legally trained mind, one which I assume is capable of picking apart unfactual or incoherent posts, and yet you resort instead to accusations like 'hate' 'rants' and 'nasty'.
Entirely up to you but people are going to draw their own conclusions.

Even if an obvious male person is sat in front of you and your job vacancy uses legal single sex exemptions, you have no workable way, as an employer, to say to the applicant, "Sorry, you're not of the right of sex so the job isn't open to you."

It does though speak to the integrity of those male applicants who would apply for explicitly stated female-only roles involving intimate care, rape counselling etc of women and girls.
Employers providing such services would, in other circumstances, regard misleading at application/ interview stage as grounds for dismissal due to the requirements of the roles.